Liberty Lift Issues

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:03 pm

Quick details on the car...

Gen II Liberty Wagon
Outback KYB Struts
Raised King Springs
Outback Trailing arm Mounts
Whiteline Adjustable Rear Camber bolts

Finally got around to getting a professional alignment (and specialist advice) from Fulcrum (not a dodgy tyre shop), the guys spent a few hours with the car, fitted the rear camber bolts and tried to get things as well setup as possible. The rear has come up fine with about -0.5 degrees of negative camber each side so happy with that. The front is still a big issue.

We've got +1.25 degrees of camber on each side and by all admissions the car handles like sh!t, floaty with chronic understeer. The outback struts AND the raised springs are just too much, the angle on the control arms is nasty and the CV's bind (a sensation that sort of feels like the clutch is slipping). The car is going to eat front tyres and CV's for breakfast if left alone.

My advice to anyone reading - DONT use outback struts and raised springs on a Liberty. Go with a full outback front crossmember OR lift blocks and standard height springs. Because for me, it's back to the start. Will maybe use blocks + standard height springs to try and reduce the angle on the control arms and driveshafts. Either that or try and do a complete OB front crossmember conversion...

Who knows...after spending near 1k (and many hours of my time in labour) for a pretty ordinary result, I'm a little over it.

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:15 pm

take a deep breath mate.. its not the end of the world!

you tried to do things different from everyone else and failed. thats why everyone else does it the same way!

What are you after here? If you want the most height possible, add a 2" lift kit with tons of offset in the front tops and your allignment probs will be fixed. You are still gonna shred CV's though.

If you are happy with a bit lower, go back to standard springs and throw a 2" lift kit in. Your alignment will be perfect and you have 30mm less angle on the front driveshafts..

I am pretty sure you would have read my thread on the gen2 i did last year. If you wanted things to just go smoothly you should have copied it!

chriSTIan · Post by **chriSTIan** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:15 pm

Hi
How much are the whiteline rear camber bolts?
Are they much different to the std ones?
Did you replace the rubber bushes on th control arms at all?
I have bad -ve camber on the rear of my gen1 lifted lib.

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:24 pm

vincentvega wrote:take a deep breath mate.. its not the end of the world!

you tried to do things different from everyone else and failed. thats why everyone else does it the same way!

What are you after here? If you want the most height possible, add a 2" lift kit with tons of offset in the front tops and your allignment probs will be fixed. You are still gonna shred CV's though.

If you are happy with a bit lower, go back to standard springs and throw a 2" lift kit in. Your alignment will be perfect and you have 30mm less angle on the front driveshafts..

I am pretty sure you would have read my thread on the gen2 i did last year. If you wanted things to just go smoothly you should have copied it!

Yeah yeah, you know I read it. And I know perfectly well that I've got noone to blame but myself...BUT if you go back you'll find you werent so quick to jump forward and say it was flawed when I said that the plan was to go with the raised springs and struts. Maybe my research was shithouse but I thought others actually run the same the combination, with and without the blocks. They just must not know of the issues or care how dodgy things are done.

Asking questions and sharing knowledge is the only way people are going to learn... the world would be a pretty f$#%ed up place if people only stepped up and gave advice after the fact...

Sorry for simply looking for thoughts and wanting to share my experience so to help others out that might be thinking of doing the same (wrong) thing.

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:31 pm

chriSTIan wrote:Hi
How much are the whiteline rear camber bolts?
Are they much different to the std ones?
Did you replace the rubber bushes on th control arms at all?
I have bad -ve camber on the rear of my gen1 lifted lib.

I paid $94 for the rear camber bolts, it's a straight swap with the old ones.

Replaced every bush in the rear with Superpro poly, when I pressed the old bushes out the trailing arms were the worst, rear control arms were actually pretty good but I did them anyway since I had everything apart. Was something like $55 for the inner control arm bushes and $55 again for the outers, trailing arm bushes were under $50.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:38 pm

Yeah I have already halfway making lift blocks for my Liberty to try improve the camber problems, I havent had the time to get around to it due work commitments. When I do, I will keep you all informed. -> still need to buy outback trailing arms mounts - no time tho...
Cheers
AP

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:06 pm

so JC whats the plan of attack then. back to standard height springs and a 2" kit with lots of offset?

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:16 pm

vincentvega wrote:so JC whats the plan of attack then. back to standard height springs and a 2" kit with lots of offset?

Unless fitting the outback front crossmember is an option? You'd probably know more about it than I would.

If not then it sounds like the only way...

Apologies for the ranting, have had a pretty ordinary day.

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:11 pm

you could fit some 1" lift blocks to the front crossmember. this would probably solve your problems. might be worth a shot anyways.

problem with experimenting is you have to payfor a wheel alignment each time you try something out...

Suby Wan Kenobi · Post by **Suby Wan Kenobi** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:22 pm

With the combination you listed as being on the car shouldnt cause an issue. I know i am running a G1 but i have 2in lift and raised kings and G1 (pre 98 ) Outback KYBs in my Liberty with no issues with chewing CVs out, yes the W/A is right i had it done after doing the lift and springs and again after the turbo conversion.

PM sent.

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:55 pm

you have lift kit offset helping you though dave...

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:57 pm

heh, dude, Lifting Subarus 101 - get a body lift kit! significant suspension lift buggers camber and CV angle. That should have been the very first fundamental bit of info you'd have found in your research. Getting rid of the raised springs and adding a lift kit should solve the problem straight away or at least massively improve it.

One thing is interesting to me, you've mentioned twice changing to outback crossmembers when talking about the front end. Is there a difference between Outback front crossmembers and Liberty ones? Do you mean just mean the engine crossmember? I can't see how an engine crossmember would make any difference. or are you talking about the wishbone control arms??

Subafury · Post by **Subafury** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:42 am

unlucky mate that it hasnt worked out for ya. but youve gotta try things that spark your interest. if no one ever tried stuff and attampted to change a characteristic we'd all be driving round in std cars. im sure everyone has tried and failed at something or another.

D3V1L · Post by **D3V1L** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:04 am

as far as im away outback and liberty x members are thesame...however the outback has 1" lift blocks on the x member from factory...probably to combat these issues

dave

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:26 am

vincentvega wrote:you could fit some 1" lift blocks to the front crossmember. this would probably solve your problems. might be worth a shot anyways.

problem with experimenting is you have to payfor a wheel alignment each time you try something out...

That's pretty much what the guys at Fulcrum recommended. I'd need blocks for the front-rear control arm mount too?

Suby Wan Kenobi wrote:With the combination you listed as being on the car shouldnt cause an issue. I know i am running a G1 but i have 2in lift and raised kings and G1 (pre 98 ) Outback KYBs in my Liberty with no issues with chewing CVs out, yes the W/A is right i had it done after doing the lift and springs and again after the turbo conversion.

PM sent.

PM replied.

AndrewT wrote:One thing is interesting to me, you've mentioned twice changing to outback crossmembers when talking about the front end. Is there a difference between Outback front crossmembers and Liberty ones? Do you mean just mean the engine crossmember? I can't see how an engine crossmember would make any difference. or are you talking about the wishbone control arms??

Pretty sure there's some sort of difference in the east-west crossmember (no idea what Subaru call it technically) between Libs and OBW's, swapping it or spacing out the Liberty one with lift blocks will make a pretty decent difference in camber as the front control arms (traverse arms in Subaru speak) bolt to it. Would need some blocks for the front control arm mounts (rear bushing that mounts with the alloy bracket to the chassis) aswell though.

Thanks for all the thoughts guys.

Outback bloke · Post by **Outback bloke** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:27 am

You are still gonna shred CV's though.

Sorry but that is wrong. There are many cars running around with that set up and they do not shred CV joints. It is not different to the 2" strut only lift that a lot of cars have and they do not shred CV joints.

Unless fitting the outback front crossmember is an option? You'd probably know more about it than I would.

An Outback cross member is no different. They are identical. The Outback has a 33mm lift block in there.

you have lift kit offset helping you though dave...

The lift kit offset only returns the struts to the original position. In other words it is no different.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:10 am

vincentvega wrote:you could fit some 1" lift blocks to the front crossmember. this would probably solve your problems. might be worth a shot anyways.

problem with experimenting is you have to payfor a wheel alignment each time you try something out...

Yep that is correct, it would be lowering the engine by 1" by doing that.
Cheers
AP

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:02 am

Outback bloke wrote:An Outback cross member is no different. They are identical. The Outback has a 33mm lift block in there.

Thanks, so in between the chassis rails and front crossmember the OB has 33mm lift blocks? How are the front rear control arm mounts spaced? They'd have to have a block or a different style mount.

Outback bloke wrote:The lift kit offset only returns the struts to the original position. In other words it is no different.

I'm confused now, Danes saying the lift kit offset will help with the front camber (currently +1.25 degrees each side) and your saying that it won't change anything?

So who's right?

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:59 am

it depends how much offset you ask for on the lift kit top...

yes a standard kit just returns the top to where it was pre lift, but if you ask for extra offset.. it will fix your tall strut problem too.

daves kit - who knows how much offset they have on them

driveshafts - when i say shred i mean quicker than an unlifted car. Show me someone with outback struts + lifted springs who gets 5 years out of shafts like I do. We will continue to but heads on this one

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:24 am

Thanks mate, making sense now. Is it Scorpion that do the offset blocks?

Just called the wrecker that I got the OB trailing arm mounts from and have asked him to send me anything that looks different to Liberty...the OB front control arms (just in case they're different) and control arm mounts, the blocks from the crossmember, rear diff carrier and cradle to chassis.

Isn't going to cost me much and I figure it's worth a shot before ripping it all apart again and fitting the aftermarket 2" Lift.