Doug's EA81 Rebuild stuff.

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Subydoug
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Post by Subydoug » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:13 pm

Lol! Twin turbos is but a figment of my emagination. A, I don't really want to be splashing that sort of cash out on an ea81. Would have just gone ej. B, I just shaved the heads to lift the CR. I would have been shaving pistons if it were going to be a forced induction motor.

Twin carbs is very tempting...but I want to at least try this efi setup. I've got all the parts, just need to slap them together. Also with the twin carbs I'm either going to have to lose the power steering or swap the pump for a smaller, modern unit. Or a cribrid system like the xt6.

Yep, been doing some research on subaruxt.com. Shouldn't be too hard. Famous last words :D.

Regards

Doug

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RSR 555
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Post by RSR 555 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:36 pm

The EA81T has a pump similar to the EA82 setup. I'd use the standard carby EA82 powersteering pump as these are a dime-a-dozen. I might even have an old EA81T setup in a MY Touring Wagon, if you want to go the twin setup way
You know you are getting old when the candles on your birthday cake start to cost more than the cake itself.

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Subydoug
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Post by Subydoug » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:55 pm

Well Il have a peek under the hood of this car I was given. Might just get lucky ;).

Regards

Doug

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Silverbullet
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Post by Silverbullet » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:08 pm

No power steering with twins? This is news to me! the EA81 p/s pump hangs out way over the drivers side cylinder head, surely not in the way of anything? :confused:
Will it ever end!?
-EA81 TWIN CARB!!!!
-L series 5 speed
-Custom paint job
-2" lift
-Full custom re-wire
-L series front end
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Subydoug
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Post by Subydoug » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:18 pm

Well, I dont mean standard twin carb manifold....I have a set of weber 34 ICT's and they will bolt up a little like this.

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Opens up a lot of room in the middle....could probably just stick the PS pump there.

I got my main bearings in the post today. "Great" I thought, but I also got some new guitar strings thisarvo. Elixir light-medium nanoweb acoustic's.......better then sex :D. Been playing for the last hour :rolleyes:.

Regards

Doug

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Silverbullet
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Post by Silverbullet » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:17 pm

Ohhhh, forgive me I forgot about that :) If you're planning something like that then the 81T pump set up would be perfect.
Will it ever end!?
-EA81 TWIN CARB!!!!
-L series 5 speed
-Custom paint job
-2" lift
-Full custom re-wire
-L series front end
Image

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Subydoug
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Post by Subydoug » Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:58 am

On a non-related carby note though, finished off my EFI circuit tonight, stuck a crank angle sensor onto it, stuck my scope on the other end and waved some metal in front of the pickup. Pleased to say It triggers the injector fet exactly as planned :cool:. Still a bit more work to do. Ive got to build one more driver to drive the second injector, then all the lodgic to tell it how long to squirt for. Should be a breeze :D. Might have a look at fitting that throttle body this weekend sometime after I finish wiring the rest of the car. Then Il have no choice but to finish it :rolleyes: At the moment Im thinking just a MAP sensor, O2 sensor and maybe a TP sensor. Initially, they will probably all go into one averaging circuit to put out a single 0-5v signal for the driver, but no doubt Im going to need tinkering knobs in the cab for each of the individual sensors for both gain and offset. If I dont do that I wont be able to tune it.

Anyway, lots to do, and I need some beauty rest.

Regards

Doug

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RSR 555
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Post by RSR 555 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:40 pm

I was thinking, can you make a pickup on the flywheel and cut down the dizzy (making a reference point), thus giving you more room for a p/str pump?

You're going to need either a MAF or MAP and TPS so the system knows what's going on. The O2 sensor will be good for tuning but not critical. Use a WB Lambda unit with good quality reader. I know you know all this stuff anyway. What logic are you using or you making your own?
You know you are getting old when the candles on your birthday cake start to cost more than the cake itself.

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Subydoug
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Post by Subydoug » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:14 pm

Well, I could just get rid of the dizzy and run megajolt. My friend has a spare unit laying around. I was thinking of making my own distributorless setup, but probably wont. Dizzy works well enough for me.

Yeah TPS and MAP are what Ive got at the moment. I already have a AEM wideband in the wagon ;). Friggin awesome bit of kit. As far as logic goes, I really havnt gotten that far yet. Becides, the way Im doing this is slightly different to a standard EFI system, which takes in the sensor inputs, analizes them and then picks a pulse duration from a chart. Im not going to be using a chart. Im just going to take the raw signal inputs and use some basic electronics to alter them in such a way that they all converge into a single signal that will tell the injector how long to fire for. It sounds complicated, but it really isnt. Yes, it wont be the best EFI system on the road, and yes, it will probably yeild simmilar results to the weber, apart from the popping and general badass tag that comes with running a carby, but I should be able to get better economy and I will be able to adjust fuel management on the fly, which I think could be handy.

Regards

Doug

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Post by TOONGA » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:07 pm

Subydoug wrote:.... but no doubt Im going to need tinkering knobs in the cab for each of the individual sensors for both gain and offset. If I dont do that I wont be able to tune it...
LOL tinkering knobs... is this going to be analog EFI... It had better be "A" class circuitry ... none of that "B" class sine bending rubbish :) how about a couple of Marshall, Fender or Peavey valves as well for that 60's mood in the cab.

On a more serious note sounds great Doug hope to see it in action soon.

PS I want one with a whammy pedal :) and some grooving reverb...

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Post by Subydoug » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:16 pm

Oh it will have a whammy for sure! Donno about the valves but. Not particually an interior guy ;). Just tinkering with it at the moment. Not happy with my trigger signal so time for some changes. Only difference between analog and digital efi is a computer that sits inbetween the sensors and injector driver. Im replacing the computer with me :D.

Regards

Doug

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Post by Subydoug » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:29 pm

Hey fella's.

Just a quick update. Got the motor back on the bench, going to dissasemble the crank and prepare it for some new big-ends when they arrive. Still need to get the valve's and seat's recut. Got quoted 130 bucks a valve and seat the other day. Ouch! I think Il pass on that one. See if anyone else can do better then that. You guys recommend anyone I should try? Other than that, the pretty up continues with cleaning and polishing parts, general tidy up.

In other news, EFI controller is working properly now, got both injectors pulsing when triggered. Trigger signal is working like a charm. Got the MAP sensor working perfectly, it now plugs in and alters the pulse width as the vacuum changes. Still need to get some form of TPS going. Cannot make that yet as I still dont know what throttle body Im going to use yet. Not a huge deal though as I do believe the controller will work with just MAP well enough to get it all in the car and working. Can someone do me a huge favor? Can someone measure the bolt spacing for an EA82 manifold, where the carby bolts on? I compared my little throttle body to my old Hitachi carby and the holes are pretty close. I do believe the ea82 manifold was slightly different??? If I get an adaptor plate cut it will help out.

So probably some time soon Il be able to put it onto the wagon and see if I cant get it working.

Regards

Doug

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Post by jims » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:44 pm

Hey Doug,

Are you talking about the four bolts that secure the carby down onto the inlet manifold?

If so, length ways gaps is roughly 83mm, and sideways gap is about 47mm. Hope this helps.

James

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Post by Subydoug » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:18 am

Arh, ok. Thanks james. My little TB is about 10mm shorter but has the same width. Should make it easy to make up an adaptor plate ;).

Regards

Doug

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Post by RSR 555 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:23 am

Subydoug wrote:Well, I could just get rid of the dizzy and run megajolt. My friend has a spare unit laying around. I was thinking of making my own distributorless setup, but probably wont. Dizzy works well enough for me.
Waste spark setup? Dizzy do work fine but was thinking of room for p/str pump.
Subydoug wrote:You guys recommend anyone I should try?
I'd call Dave at AK Cylinder Heads in Kelmscott.
Subydoug wrote:In other news, EFI controller is working properly now, got both injectors pulsing when triggered. Trigger signal is working like a charm.
What are you using for the trigger when it's in the car? Will the injectors pulse once or twice per revolution?
You know you are getting old when the candles on your birthday cake start to cost more than the cake itself.

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Post by TOONGA » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:00 am

RSR 555 wrote: What are you using for the trigger when it's in the car? Will the injectors pulse once or twice per revolution?
Don't you read ... a whammy pedal and a couple of valves from, Im hoping, a Fender Bassman... :)

I would say in reality Doug will use a hall effect setup of some sort (like the trigger wheel that the EDIS systems use) considering he has the pick up but where it will trigger from and how is the grooving question.

:)

I must ask in re-reading, why does you friend have a megajolt just lying around?

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Post by steptoe » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:38 am

Hmmm, wondering if a hot wire afm systems dizzy off an EA82 would help Doug with all this - afterall some boys adapted an EA82 e dizzy to fit EA81 just for the electronic ignition so physically can be done just need a dizzy with no mech advance and the electronic pick up insides

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Post by Subydoug » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:55 pm

Well il see how I go. Most likely going to go with this EFI system so I will be able to run the same ps pump so the dizzy wont be a problem.

Il give those guys a call on tuesday. Cheers Paul.

For Triggers, Im running crank pickups. There is one crank pickup for each injector. They will be spaced 180 Deg (crank angle) apart. Each pickup is triggered once per crank revolution. Reasoning behind this kind of setup is simple. Trouble shooting should be a little easier, and the crank sensors were around 20 bucks each ;). The injector firing order is very simple. Each injector is independant of the other, and Im having trouble trying to word this correctly, so Im going to talk about only cylinders 1 and 3. Crank angle sensor will initially be set at around 90 deg BTDC. I feel that Im probably going to have to fire it a little earlier though to compensate for the manifold runner length.....something testing will tell. Anyway, injector triggers, during exhaust. Crank rotates around 360 deg and the injector fires again. This time though the injector is supplying fuel for cylinder 3 as cylinder 1 is busy with combustion. The cycle repeats. Similarly, with cylinders 2 and 4, but of corse 180 degs difference in crank angle. This type of setup gives each injector a full rotation (crank) before it has to fire again vs only 180 deg. This is good because, when you do the math, at 4500rpm, it only takes the crank around 8ms to rotate 360 deg. If the injector is trying to be driven every 180 deg it's only getting around 3-4ms to do its job. That means very high duty cycle, and injector sizing is hard because you need a big enough injector to supply all the fuel needs at full throttle with pulse widths of around 3ms. Injectors that big will run rich at idle purely from the physical time it takes for the injector to close. Starting to see why sequencial MPFI is so good? :D. each injector gets 2 crank rotations per firing, a whopping ~16ms. Revving the engine harder will reduce this time. This is another reason why spfi is not as common as MPFI. Anyway, enough ramble, for now :D.

Toonga, donno really. He had it in his Escort, and offered it to me a while back for the wagon when I needed a new dizzy. I'd say it was a spare??

Steptoe, Nah, probably not going down that route. Nothing wrong with the current ignition setup. Il just get the basic injector setup working first. Once that foundation is layed, it is easy to add additional sensors and systems to the mix. If I start with a complex system, its going to be hard to get working. If I start with a dead simple system first and get that working, Then adding the extra's 1 by 1 will allow me to set them up "individually" making the whole process smooth, if that makes sence??

Regards

Doug

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Post by steptoe » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:07 pm

I trust I am not the only one a little bit envious of your talents, not only can you tinker with mechanicals but get into efi design and implementation

Can we see some progress pics off stuff as you go , like the $20 pick-ups, how you are mounting stuff etc..please

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Post by RSR 555 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:26 pm

So waste fuel then. Simple and basic but not that efficient compared to individual fuel. It high end is no issue but low down it's not so good. Like you say, not much time in between cycles. Also need good quality injectors and good pressure fuel supply system.

I can't wait to see her in action :cool:
You know you are getting old when the candles on your birthday cake start to cost more than the cake itself.

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