How to select a good EJ motor to swap in.

[niterida]

i had a bit of a read through and i couldn't find anything about of the same family, seemed to be more about engine mounting points. there is also an emphasis on workman ship of any modifications/welding/etc. i am pretty keen to know the answer, i am doing an ej conversion in Nov, and want it all to be legit.

that document also says "Fitting of a replacement engine with not more than 20% greater mass and/or power output than engines offered by the first manufacturer as a standard or optional engine.", so i could argue that ej is not 20% more powerful than a turbo EA82. (this may also mean i need to find disks for the rear)

There is a checklist on there, the only thing i can find that i would be a bit worried about is where it says "Has the engine been fitted without the alteration of the vehicle's chassis,
sub-frames, cross-members or body members?" and i believe the cross member holes need to be elongated. may be an issue, hopefully not.

i know Guyph said he got over without an eng cert, but whether we still can...

My understanding is that any engine swap that does not bolt straight in requires an engineers certificate. So technically an EJ swap needs one because you have to change engine mounting by slotting the crossmember, running wedges (because they sit at a slightly different angle) or by redoing them properly.

Now because those are very slight changes that would possibly not be picked up by the inspection it is possible that you can get away without engineering it.

Best bet is to ask the Dept of Transport for clarification.

[2nd Hand Yank]

Slotting the crossmember?

Can the frame be be reinforced with some kind of brace after slotting?
Strut tower braces wouldn't require welding.

[TOONGA]

the holes in the crossmember are elongated by 10 -15 mm to allow for the extra width (minimal) of the engine mounts of the EJ motor.

if made properly (machined like these) the wedges under the mounts would not be a problem.

TOONGA

[El_Freddo]

Slotting the crossmember?

Can the frame be be reinforced with some kind of brace after slotting?
Strut tower braces wouldn't require welding.

No need for reinforcing, it's only 10-15mm so really you could get away with it. The longer holes are still on the double plated area of the engine mount points so I wouldn't even bother telling the engineer about it. The wedges though are another thing...

I don't know where you're going with the strut tower brace - the L series doesn't really have one, the spare tyre holder would flex quite a bit and not do any re-inforcing IMO. I've not got it anymore due to the EJ and I've not noticed any change in handling other than the extra grunt of the EJ

Cheers

Bennie

[2nd Hand Yank]

Say I find the EJ25 more interesting than EJ22, but I like my current drivetrain...

What would I have to do to make the drivetrain handle an EJ25?
I'd prefer to keep the manual transmission and part-time 4wd.

I think I've heard from a few guys that the EJ22 isn't too powerful for the L Series drivetrain, but EJ25 is too much.

Just asking, if the modifications aren't too hard.

I think I saw the EJ22 rated at 136hp and EJ25 at 162hp.
An L Series with 162hp would probably run like a Commodore with 300hp.

[niterida]

I think I saw the EJ22 rated at 136hp and EJ25 at 162hp.
An L Series with 162hp would probably run like a Commodore with 300hp.

Yep thats about right.

What you really need is an EJ25 with an auto - the extra torque multiplication of the auto means you can do away with high/low range and also concentrate on steering the thing without having to worry about clutch abuse or being in the right gear. Subaru did away with dual range in auto's because they wrok just as well without them.
Go on you know you want to

[GOD]

To make the drivetrain handle EJ power, you need an EJ spec clutch and EJ full time AWD gearbox. Or you can keep all the original EA gear, drive sensibly and you'll be fine. Just go easy on the throttle in the wet.

Dane.

[2nd Hand Yank]

To make the drivetrain handle EJ power, you need an EJ spec clutch and EJ full time AWD gearbox. Or you can keep all the original EA gear, drive sensibly and you'll be fine.

Just go easy on the throttle in the wet.

Dane.

*Drive sensibly*
What's that mean?

-avoid burnouts and "clutch popping"? at all costs?
-never "flog it" while in gear?
-never "flog it" in 4Lo with a EJ25?
-or just wait until its engaged for full throttle, provided rpm is above 1000rpm
(^^ not bogged deep in sand, gunning it from the start trying to get out too quick)

how easy would I have to drive with an EJ25 vs. EJ22 and my stock drivetrain?

Other things to consider:

Is there much difference in fuel economy in the same kind of vehicle, EJ22 vs. EJ25?
I dislike getting 10L/100km on the highway with my EA82 because I have to look for fuel before 500kms, even babying the throttle.

Some engines are less efficient, irrespective of engine displacement and more about engine design.
I met a bloke with a early 2000's Corvette and said his 300-400hp vette can get 35mpg at 90mph.
That's like 6-7L/100km travelling at 146km/h!
No doubt, that's partly due to the extremely-aerodynamic body style; very wide but very low roof-line and very sleek.

[2nd Hand Yank]

Yep thats about right.

What you really need is an EJ25 with an auto - the extra torque multiplication of the auto means you can do away with high/low range and also concentrate on steering the thing without having to worry about clutch abuse or being in the right gear. Subaru did away with dual range in auto's because they wrok just as well without them.
Go on you know you want to

Or I could just drive like this:

-start in 2nd, shift to 4th, then 5th.

My EA82 needs all the gears in between,
but with virtually triple the power,
those other gears might be a waste of time
unless I want it to run "...like a scalded dog..."

[niterida]

That would be as much to do with the torque of the motor allowing it pull a moonshot diff/6th gear combination - probably only doing 1800rpm at that speed

Is there much difference in fuel economy in the same kind of vehicle, EJ22 vs. EJ25?
I dislike getting 10L/100km on the highway with my EA82 because I have to look for fuel before 500kms, even babying the throttle.

Some engines are less efficient, irrespective of engine displacement and more about engine design.

Difference between Ej22 and EJ25 probably not much - they generally both get around 10l/100km (God I hate that reference - who decided we were going to use an arbitrary amount of km to decide how much fuel we use - I find it very hard to 'visualise' l/100km as a fuel consumption - whats wrong with km/l ?)

However that is in a Liberty/Outback - in an L series which is a bit lighter they should get a bit better economy - but the good old AWD is always gonna suck the juice compared to simialr FWD or RWD.

[2nd Hand Yank]

That would be as much to do with the torque of the motor allowing it pull a moonshot diff/6th gear combination - probably only doing 1800rpm at that speed

Yeah I think it had a 6th speed.
Is that probably a 2nd level of overdrive?

Now THAT would be the car I'd want to drive across the Nullabor.

[niterida]

Is that probably a 2nd level of overdrive?

In that car yes - 5th would be slightly overdriven - say 0.9:1 and 6th would be massively overdiven - 0.7:1 or something (note thiose figures plucked from thin air and may not be anywhere near correct but you get the idea)

Other cars with 6 (and now 7 in some DSG twin clutch boxes) just make all the gears closer ratios to take advantage of the lack of torque and 'top' gear would still be closer to the old 5th gear.

[mud_king91]

have to agree with niterida go auto better torque also allows for easier driving especially offroad autos tend to go further or atleast its easier to take them further

[El_Freddo]

Or you can keep all the original EA gear, drive sensibly and you'll be fine. Just go easy on the throttle in the wet.

+1

*Drive sensibly*

-avoid burnouts and "clutch popping"? at all costs?
-never "flog it" while in gear?
-never "flog it" in 4Lo with a EJ25?
-or just wait until its engaged for full throttle, provided rpm is above 1000rpm
(^^ not bogged deep in sand, gunning it from the start trying to get out too quick)

how easy would I have to drive with an EJ25 vs. EJ22 and my stock drivetrain?

Probably about the same I'd reckon, the EJ25 will be a little more responsive IMO than the EJ22...

As for burnouts etc, you'll have to drive like a grandma not to. Venom has some 1st hand experience with the EJ25 and front wheel drive... He'll also tell you that L series brakes aren't up to the task (disc/drum combo).

However that is in a Liberty/Outback - in an L series which is a bit lighter they should get a bit better economy - but the good old AWD is always gonna suck the juice compared to simialr FWD or RWD.

While this thinking is usually correct, the gearing in the EA PT 4wd 5 speed box is too low for the EJ - thus you're going to suck juice at speed. You need to be careful with your foot to get that magic 10L/100km or under...

have to agree with niterida go auto better torque also allows for easier driving especially offroad autos tend to go further or atleast its easier to take them further

And where's the fun in that?? This is why those big 4wd's cruise over everything creating larger ruts while in search of challenging their 4wd and driving abilities...

Cheers

Bennie

[2nd Hand Yank]

+1

Probably about the same I'd reckon, the EJ25 will be a little more responsive IMO than the EJ22...

As for burnouts etc, you'll have to drive like a grandma not to. Venom has some 1st hand experience with the EJ25 and front wheel drive... He'll also tell you that L series brakes aren't up to the task (disc/drum combo).

Hmm...

Most of your braking force is needed on the front; weight distribution + weight shift at heavy braking.
Is there an easy swap I can do for bigger brakes behind 14" Sunraysias?
Multiple pistons makes a big difference too, rather than single piston.
Grippier brake pads as well.

Though with a manual trans,
you have the option to disengage the motor before braking,
so braking "should" be the same under certain circumstances.
I would say for "panic stops" my car's braking is acceptable
and for regular braking they're better than I'd expect from a used car.

While this thinking is usually correct, the gearing in the EA PT 4wd 5 speed box is too low for the EJ - thus you're going to suck juice at speed. You need to be careful with your foot to get that magic 10L/100km or under...

Which is why I want to stick with the manual transmission.
Extra prowess in soft sand doesn't interest me if it's extra cost + noticeable drop in fuel economy and distance you can go on a full tank.
I only have one vehicle in Australia.
If my L Series was my "toy" and I had another vehicle for long road trips
then yeah, auto for sand sounds excellent.

*If 9L/100km's is so elusive, maybe I want to stick with 185 tread width too.

I also find my L Series performance adequate in soft sand.
It could probably use an overhaul of the manual transaxle to aid in shifting,
though I usually have no complaints, driveability-wise.

And where's the fun in that?? This is why those big 4wd's cruise over everything creating larger ruts while in search of challenging their 4wd and driving abilities...

Cheers

Bennie

hahaha. +1

I enjoy shifting gears in sand sometimes; downshift, engage and*BWAH* (text for wide open throttle, lol) pinning you a bit back into your seat. It can be fun not knowing how the downshift will turn out, then having an ear-to-ear grin when it goes flawlessly... even better when it throws sand above the roof while accelerating.

[mud_king91]

a majority of large 4wds are manual especially the ones you see off road i cant say iv seen any auto,s creating large ruts or even driving through them i prefer auto if your like me you,d understand... id much rather an auto subaru trying to go where everyone struggles then a manual struggling to go where everyone can thats my preference tho

[2nd Hand Yank]

id much rather an auto subaru trying to go where everyone struggles then a manual struggling to go where everyone can thats my preference tho

I didn't realise auto was that much better.

I've driven both manual and auto in snow so deep,
the bottom of the front bumper is pushing through the snow too
(several inches above the underbody)
and I found very little difference auto vs. manual,
though there isn't much risk of the motor "bogging" in snow.
Your tyres slide easily on snow when you start to struggle,
where it seems deep soft sand grabs them a bit like a baseball "catcher's mitt"

Does auto also decrease the risk of vehicle damage driving in sand?

After hearing that, an auto is tempting,
but I still enjoy engine-braking, the lighter weight of the drivetrain and theoretical fuel economy advantages.

Maybe just swap out the manual if I get tired of it?

[2nd Hand Yank]

After chatting with niterider,
I want to find out more about the 2nd Gen EJ25's.

TOONGA told me the EJ22 isn't heavier than my EA82. That's great news.
Is the 2nd Gen EJ25 much heavier than the 2nd Gen EJ22?

I think I'd prefer 2nd Gen so I don't need to install a "chip key" ignition.

After some thought,
the 2nd Gen EJ25 also sounds better than the 3rd Gen EJ25
because it has less torque and more horsepower...
what's good about that is it'll probably be easier on my drivetrain

though niterider suggested I could swap out the EA82 transmission internals for EJ gearing, keeping the manual tranny.

At first it sounded like the EJ25 was a high rever and the EJ22 was a "stump puller"
but niterider told me they should be roughly the same for powerbands
as both have dual-overhead camshafts, possibly 4 valves per cylinder.

If I can put in a 2nd Gen EJ25 for nearly the same investment of time and money,
I think I'd prefer the EJ25.

Also, 162hp from the EJ25 is actually just double the horsepower I have now.
My engine's response at full throttle as I wish it would be at 1/3 throttle.

[El_Freddo]

TOONGA told me the EJ22 isn't heavier than my EA82. That's great news.

I disagree with this. I've had myself and two blokes lift an EA82 from the engine bay, my brother and I can easily carry the EA82.
The Ej22 I would not consider lifting with only 3 blokes. And carrying the EJ22 with my brother is more of a struggle over the EA82.

I think I'd prefer 2nd Gen so I don't need to install a "chip key" ignition.

This is not hard to do and I've seen it done before. The chip key can be used as an extra part of engine security - hide it in the glovebox and you're all sorted. Use your standard key for power and leave the chip key in the "on" position and you're all sweet. To explain, the chip key in the on position feeds power to the ECU (and verifies the key) once the main ignition you usually use is switched to the on position

though niterider suggested I could swap out the EA82 transmission internals for EJ gearing, keeping the manual tranny.

While you can easily swap the EA82 gearbox internals into EJ casings I'm not sure that it's as easy to mix and match EA82 PT 4wd gearbox internals with EJ AWD internals.

What I guess you're talking about here is to take the EA82 PT 4wd internals, throw away the 1st-5th + reverse and replace that with the EJ AWD 1st-5th + reverse, retaining the PT 4wd pinion shaft for on-demand 4wd. I have not had the EA pinion shaft separate from the lower gearsets so I don't know if they're on a hollow shaft like the EJ gearsets are. IF it is infact hollow you might find that they're different sizes between EJ and EA.

I say this as I've read that the EJ 5th gear is not interchangeable with the EA 5th speed due to shaft thickness differences. I want to change my 5th gear for something taller for lower cruising revs. The only advantage with the EA 5th is that with the stock tyres I can still cruise up hills in 5th with a loaded trailer. Other than that I think it buzzes too high for best fuel economy.

EJ22/EJ25 - I don't think it really matters. EJ22 is still a huge kick over the EA82. You talk about feeling seat of your pants the acceleration with the EA82, sorry but I laugh at that (no offence), wait until you have the EJ THEN talk about acceleration when you're pushed back into your seat!

Cheers

Bennie

[2nd Hand Yank]

Sometimes a larger object is harder to carry, even if it isn't heavier. More awkward.

Is an EJ25 much heavier than an EJ22?
Driving taza's 2.0L, I felt that it lacked a lot of bottom-end vs. mid-high range.

If an EJ25 is much heavier (so I'd want a spring change, then it's harder to "float")
as well as harder to put in than an EJ22,
and say noticeably more thirsty at most cruise speeds in the same vehicle
then I'd rather have the EJ22.

If an EJ22 is almost the same weight as an EJ25 AND the level of difficulty is similar, I'd rather have an EJ25.

Laugh all you like,
but when you also factor in weight and tyre size differences,
my L Series had more instant throttle response at low rpm
(say the first 3/10th of a second) than did his ride (Legacy?)

I might like to pick up niterider's EJ22, if that's the motor size I want.