how does this new-fangled 'push button start/stop work'?

[NachaLuva]

All sounds very complicated & unnecessary!
I agree, stick with tried n true key in the ignition, turn to start.

I think the push button is just a gimmick

[steptoe]

A thought occured to me why Neville is asking.... I think he wants to replicate it in his fighter plane inspired Vortex. Given the odd 'hidden' ignition key barrel in the Vortex I am sure it could be improved . It is almost as bad as the other aircraft designer SAAB with their ignition barrels in the centre console with lock hole facing up - I'm sure they must gunk up with stuff falling their way ?

[discopotato03]

The sign of things to come , as long as the motoring public continues accepting all this rubbish its what the manufacturers will continue to serve up . Big Brother is alive and well and he lives in the regulating bodies all around the world .

It can be stopped but people have to stand up and resist it and they plain aren't doing it .
The "people" in the "regulating" and "standards" bodies are speaking for all of us without bothering to consult ANY of us .

Quick challenge :
Go out and try to buy a current car that doesn't have ABS/electric throttle/Drivers Handbags/electronic auto box/fast glass/Active Stability Control .

What ever happened to freedom of choice ?
Whatever happened to living in a free democracy ?
When are people going to realise that those governing us are calling the shots and telling us whats good for us .
Do you honestly think they know better than you whats good for you ?

1984 , its in the future not the past .

[nncoolg]

I lost interest in new cars when the commercials started using stuff like 'bluetooth' or 'ipod connectivity' as their main feature.

And the triton ad, 'The only ute in its class to have ASC' - gold!!!

I personally made a promise to myself that I wouldnt ever buy a subaru after the 'lets add door frames' era. That makes me sounds a lot like my uncle with his original Datsun 1200 keeping holding on to it, petrified of anything with 'a computer':mrgreen:

Yeah, Jonno, sorry to disappoint, I don't want one - just interested in how the momentary push thing works, still am.

[Brumby Kid]

Im 15 and im thinking i would much rather do this. (when im an adult)
Budget say $20,000
Buy an old subie for around $5,000 and spend the extra on keeping it running or doing it up. (Old cars i can actually work on and get to the engine, unlike the new computer ones)
Or buy a $20,000 car and spend extra keeping it running because i have to take it to a technician to tune it with his laptop.
Plus the old car will be 10 times better after the work on it, and you save heaps!!!

Cheers Cam

[steptoe]

- just interested in how the momentary push thing works, still am.

Are you after a diagram, need to know if it is ECU controlled or a self contaied starter circuit ?

Gannon helped me with a diagram to hook up a box for me for protecting cig lighter circuit powerd stuff from start up/cranking voltage spikes or surges.

Using just one relay (instead of three or 4 as suggested on 12V.com) and a momentry switch, it is a box between cig lighter socket and my alerteGPS. Relay and its wiring stays plugged in while starting, does not power up GPS until I hit momentary switch, that then locks relay switched through until next ign off. On restart, same protection, no GPS 'til I hit switch.

My guess is that this is like part of the push button and release connection to starter once engine is going idea you ask !

[Gannon]

It will be totally ECU controlled.

You press the button with your foot on the brake, the ECU calculates that you want to start. The ECU switches on the ignition and engages the starter motor.
Via the RPM sensor, exhaust sensor and knock sensor, the ECU recognises that the engine is under its own power and disengages the starter motor.

[Gannon]

Quick challenge :
Go out and try to buy a current car that doesn't have ABS/electric throttle/Drivers Handbags/electronic auto box/fast glass/Active Stability Control

For my daily driver (and the mrs's car), I quite like all those things. Bar maybe the drivers handbag, whatever that is?

If its raining and an idiot drives through a red traffic light, ABS and ASC are things that will help avoid coming to grief when the natural reaction is to hit the anchors. Electronic auto's arent exactly exciting, but they and electronic windows are luxuries. Electronic throttles are a way to increase fuel efficiency and decrease emissions

But electronic handbrakes and start buttons are just a wank.
I'd still like a confirming answer as to what happens in an emergency. Can the handbrake be pulled on with the car in motion in case the foot brakes dont work? Is there any way of turning off a push button start car if the throttle sticks?

[discopotato03]

Gannon people got by for a lot of years without all the electronic geewizzardry so all thats really changed is the volume of traffic/drivers and the disturbing habits some "drivers" have .

What I don't like about ABS , aside from mega expensive repair bills , is peoples perception that its always going to save their necks . It can fail and revert to a sort of conventional system and the burry the foot and freeze brigade is still going to crash .
ABS doesn't cater for cheap nasty gripless tyres , though it will ensure they don't lock completely as you go into the oncoming traffic .
Of my three cars only the Evo 6 has ABS and I wish it didn't , though it does have big brakes and good rubber .
Better driving practises on everyones part is the best answer .

Electronic throttles came about for two reasons , the first being traction control and the second the ease of applying cruise control .
Also on production lines its easier to bolt the pedal assembly in then connect a plug , no cable to feed through the firewall .
In the real world a failed pedal assembly or throttle body servo motor means you're going nowhere . It also means without genuine parts your still screwed . Locating a cable may not be easy with some cars but carying a spare makes sense if you go into remote areas .
A cable system is proven and simple and generally reliable .

Electronic autos , they mean the death of many used cars with the horrors because often repair bills cost more than the cars worth .
Simple solution , learn to drive a REAL transmission and buy manual cars .
I don't accept that anyone worthy of a drivers license can't learn to drive "a stick" . Its all my better looking half ever had so less grief for the one who has to fix things or pay the bills if I can't .

Fast glass , yes a novelty till one poos itself and is a major PITA to work on . Manual winders are simple cheap effective and easy to work on .

The pattern is pretty much the same , its all great while its working but lots of agro when it doesn't .

Drivers handbag is traindriver for SRS Air Bags . Not proven in my book because they don't always deploy and sometimes there cover plates do more damage than the accident does .
Then of course the heap often worn't start if they do go off meaning that after a minor bingle your stuck . Fitting new handbags will very probably mean more mega expensive factory parts and no you don't get rego till their fixed . Another nasty little sting is computer systems not liking booster jump starts scrambling SRSs little electronic head . My Skyline had this happen and I was bitten big time for a mob to plug a Nissan Consult into it and press reset - just to stop a red dash light flashing - read no rego inspection pass with light flashing . What I wouldn't give to be able to take them out of the Skyline and Lancer .

The problem is nowdays that people are being coached into thinking that they must have all the garbage and that its actually being installed because car manufacturers genuinely care about you . You don't and they don't , they fit it at some considerable cost because the "regulators" will not give compliance without the trash meaning they can't sell their cars for public road use without it .

It will be interesting to see what real life current cars will have , old cars sometimes survive if looked after and its nice to see an old EH Holden or XP Falcon from time to time . How many SIDI Commode Doors do you think will be around in 40 + years time and how would you service one if it survived the years ? Where would you find an electronic auto/ABS unit/body PCM box/hand bag etc etc . As soon as you can't its rubbish/history/unregisterable - get it off the street and throw it away .
With the XP or EH you could have parts made if something similar enough couldn't be found . With SIDI Dunny Doors electronic boxes/looms ? Forget it .

A .

[Gannon]

I agree with you on your points Adrian, but at every stage in history, human kind has embraced new technology. There would have been people 100 odd years ago that said they will never buy a car, they'd rather walk.

As for ABS, you cannot tell me that you can stop a non ABS car quicker than an ABS car in poor weather conditions?

But I do strongly agree that if I want to buy a brand new car, I should be able to opt for a cable handbrake and an ignition barrel if I want it.

[steptoe]

ETC is there for pollution - the throttle won't open until it knows the engine management is ready for the fuel and air coming its way, and it will only burn as clean as it can. It cannot yet read the drivers mind and is an absolute pain in the arrrse in Falcons when it plays up. A stop engine and restart and it suddenly forgets it was a PITA seconds before!!

[discopotato03]

Gannon you'll think I'm splitting hairs but I would have said throughout time humans have been offered technical "innovation" and market forces pushed by aggressive marketing have set the pace .

ABS is subjective and as I said its only as good as the rubber under it . I'd rather the good rubber and good feel through the pedal .
Imagine this , Joe average won't spend good money on tyres so when push comes to shove he buys cheap round black things . Now we all know that tyres make a huge difference and it isn't hard to see where nasty ones are going to lock up in poor surface conditions . So the cheap nasty tries to slip before a good one will and ABS says right will not lock so the vehicle travels as far as it takes to stop with the reduced friction cycle .
Good tyres offer much better braking grip so the stopping distances will be shorter , they are also less likely to lock to start with .
Big brakes with properly matched master cylinder sizes and and boosters offer far better feel that small brakes with small masters and too much assistance . The under braked and over boosted systems are what most late general purpose cars have so not surprisingly you don't have to prod them too hard to get to a locking type situation , which ABS blocks .
The manufacturers can't force buyers to fit good tyres or learn safe driving habits and they have to cater to the general dumbing down/nanny state which doesn't encourage accountability .

I'll leave you with this , most race and rally cars don't have ABS and the drivers don't miss it . They consider ABS unsafe in race machinery because it adds an element of unpredictability which doesn't work at 270 + km/h .
On the dirt there are live and die situations where you MUST be able to lock the brakes or you're just not going to walk away from the crunch .
Note that in some OS model cars you could switch off the ABS and traction control because they are not perfect systems .

With the electronic throttles , manufacturers know that aside from traction control and cruise there are situations where a given engine will make best mean torque without the throttle being fully open . This doesn't stop people "flooring it" when they want to get cracking so the simple solution it to take absolute control away from the driver . Remember those words , take control away from the driver .
Someone above said something about a Prado I think it was and the throttle not doing what its supposed to do . Here you don't have control because the regulator Nazis don't want you to be in control because , in their opinion , you are clueless idiot and they're attempting to make things idiot proof and catering to the lowest common denominator .

Rounding up the biggest bug bear is will you be able to legally service a 25+ year old 2011 Subaru or whatever like I can my 25 year old L Series Sedan ? Factor in that cars are a lot more complex and electronically driven than they were 25 years ago and it doesn't take much in the way of electronic mayhem to stop them dead in their tracks .
Personally I think most late model cars will have short lives because they are built with a redundant throw away mindset and longevity is not intended to be a priority .
Most won't have a chance of servicing the things and if they reach 10 years with normal/average usage the back to base service costs will become unsustainable .


At this stage I don't think cars are improving at all . History has shown that they get more complex and expensive and most of the development goes into appeasing the regulating bodies .
They are not really designed to be worked on and it shows in the way things are laid out . Coxy was telling me not too long ago about the Camy/Aurion POS that cost its owner $2500 to change a leaking power steering hose . Half the front of the engine had to come apart to remove and replace one hose . Embracing modern innovations ? What sort of clueless morons does Roytota employ as engineers ? And you see this sort of stuff all over modern heaps of shizen . I could go on like the Holden Opel based SB car with plastic cam pulleys that collapse and bend all the vlaves . Cars with larger sumps and longer service intervals so they only have to change the 7 odd litres of oil ever 20,000 km .

No I'll pass on all this BS and live with cars that have straightforward mechanical electric and hydraulic systems for as long as possible .
Long live the Brumby and L Series era cars , they have done so for a reason and masses of electronic controls isn't it .

A .

[MTB92]

Here you don't have control because the regulator Nazis don't want you to be in control because , in their opinion , you are clueless idiot and they're attempting to make things idiot proof and catering to the lowest common denominator.
A .

I am studying engineering, and that is exactly how we are taught to do everything. everything has to be designed like that to cover the companies bum, and its a crying shame that it is going that way. All you have to do is have a look at the news and you will see why though...

i think my generation especially has lost/ is losing a lot of common sence and skills that were often common, driving no different. i flat out refuse to get in some of my friends cars as they simply dont know what they are doing, or panic if something goes unexpected. My old man made me do a lot of gravel and night driving when i was on L's, and wouldn't let me go for p's until he was confident in my driving. some of my mates parents signed of the hrs without them even getting in the car. i was taught what to do if the car is in a slide and how to emergency brake, they have no idea except scream and cover there face. as a result i have never crashed, while some of my friends have been through 2 or 3 cars, and often thanks to abs and air bags they are still here (i have never had a car with any of these). those restrictions are only coming in place because situations that could have been avoided have occurred.

i like the idea of being able to turn it all on or off. (the evo 6 should definitely have that option!!!) but then you get a moron who doesn't know how to operate it making a mess of it, or someone trying to show off and be a hero lose it.

and as long as there is a report/stat/investigation somewhere that says to the governing bodies ".... has reduced death/injury by...%" it will keep going that way. what can you do?

[OKsubaru]

Gone off on a bit of a tangent here eh ? While off the topic , fuel economy is something that has not improved markedly over 25 years we are just offered more in heavier units, not always bigger though. Look at the old EA81/ EA82 that we can get 9 to 10 l per 100km out of 1800cc in a 1000 - 1100 kg body. We have bigger, faster, more powerful drivetrains with similar fuel sipping don't we?

[Alex]

andrewT had push button in his MY buggy.

although it was just to start the thing, nothing else was neccessary as it would never get stolen :P

alex

[tony]

yes i am looking for a VK to replace theall-electronic monster i have now, the vk was about the last to have a carby and not much electronics except the dissy and i can live with that. yes it gets worse fuel economy but who cares? for the couple of bucks a monmth extra it costs i have thepeace of mind of knowing i can fix it. and the money saved can buy a lot of petrol.
however, to the point of this post, there is nothiong mysterious or high tech with the starter button. i fitted one to my HQ when the ignition stuffed up. most cars had it until around 1958.
it is simply a button connecting the wire from the battery to the wire to the starter solenoid. press the button, contact is made, the starter cranks over, when the engine runs it causes the starter drive gear to recoil away from the flywheel so the motor can keep running. if you don't release the button the starter will keep engaging and you will have something break. the mini on the floor one had the same system, morris minors and the like had a cable that you pulled, it was connected to the starter drive gear by a lever, it pulled the lever and pushed the drive gear back into the flywheel and at the same time contacted a set of points on the starter which kicked the starter over/
I quite like the push button start, it is simple and relatively foolproof and has not much to go wrong. unlike ignition switch set ups. There is something satisfying about pushing a button and feeling the monster below stirring......that turning a key or worse just being near it does not have.
and god help us with this new batch of cars coming out that turn off the engine when at traffic lights or idling, then starting when you push the accelerator pedal. wouldn't you love to have shares in a battery manufacturer or starter motor manufacturer? the car makers cannot build an ordinary car with a decent starter these days, what hope with a starter that has to cope with being operated every few minutes as you drive 100 metres between traffic lights? what goes through the tiny one-cell minds of the visionaries who mandate these ideas? I guess the same as what goes through when they design cars that start when you approach with the key when all you want to do is get the pizza off the back seat, or the cars that put the brakes on when you are too close to another car when you are actually about to pull out and overtake and you suddenly find the anchors are out.
as for fuel economy has anyone else noticed that although the cost of oil has gone down from around $110 to around $85 the cost of petrol at the bowser has actually gone up? the old standard was that petrol price rose and fell about 1 cent for each dollar the price of the barrel moved, and that was when the aussie battler was at 95 cents, so by rights the price of petrol at the bowser should be around 25c or maybe a bit more lower, i bet when the oil price goes up bowser prices will follow immediately.

[steptoe]

Tony, you may have missed the point on this one, it is a push button once - a momentary action, and starter continues to turn over until engine fires up in normal starting - sort of thing , not the old hold button in until it fires

[Gannon]

Um, I explained it in the last page

[tony]

i did not realise that but it is still only a step further it would not be difficult to engineer this, for instance with efi the feedback from the dissy tells the fuel pump to keep pumping, no feed back no pump. this is not that different (why is this telling me that realise is spelt wrong? realize is surely American now its telling me american is wrong it wants a capital.. bugger it)bloody americanised spell check.

[steptoe]

ahem... that should be "Americanized"

spell check ? who has got spell check in here ?
Our English language continues to evolve, sometimes before our eyes much to the disgust of some who think it should not change, some those that forget it evolved to this day .....

Not many dissys around to offer feedback now, you mean coil ?