2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder

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suthol
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Post by suthol » Fri May 06, 2011 10:11 pm

teye wrote:13000km and no shudder, lights, any thing really. I drive it hard and fuel use stays around 7l 100km. But mostly its driven on school runs. I try and take it out once a week for a thrash.

I notice this seems to be a lower east coast issue. Ive googled and cant see much else elswhere, I imagine if the issue was wide spread it would at least show up once somewhere. From what I can tell a shit load have been sold in europe.

Is it a fuel quality issue ??????
Lucky you've had no shudder yet, have you had your first service that really does seem to hit a sweet spot, it certainly was with mine.

Remember the majority of the Subie guys have never seen a diesel and quite frankly I don't know that they have had sufficient training on their new technology.

Bad fuel maybe, because of my fuel & fleet cards I can only use BP which could be a common factor. I do use a very high turnover servo though where you have to queue up for one of the four diesel pumps so I would expect it to be fresh at least if not a good brew.

As an aside in the News press today ( Friday's Tele in Sydney ) there was an article on Australia's version of the " Lemon Laws " could be worth keeping for the next visit and discussion with your friendly Subie service centre ;)

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Diesel OB
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Post by Diesel OB » Sat May 07, 2011 7:46 am

suthol wrote:Lucky you've had no shudder yet, have you had your first service that really does seem to hit a sweet spot, it certainly was with mine.

Remember the majority of the Subie guys have never seen a diesel and quite frankly I don't know that they have had sufficient training on their new technology.

Bad fuel maybe, because of my fuel & fleet cards I can only use BP which could be a common factor. I do use a very high turnover servo though where you have to queue up for one of the four diesel pumps so I would expect it to be fresh at least if not a good brew.

As an aside in the News press today ( Friday's Tele in Sydney ) there was an article on Australia's version of the " Lemon Laws " could be worth keeping for the next visit and discussion with your friendly Subie service centre ;)

I wonder if anybody has a copy of this article??? I would be interested in having a read of it. I was under the impression that as yet we have no "Lemon Laws" but any new vehicle by definition must be "Fit for Purpose"!!

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suthol
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Post by suthol » Sat May 07, 2011 8:03 am

Diesel OB wrote:I wonder if anybody has a copy of this article??? I would be interested in having a read of it. I was under the impression that as yet we have no "Lemon Laws" but any new vehicle by definition must be "Fit for Purpose"!!
It's the Dept of Fair Trading here in NSW and it falls under Australian Consumer Law.

I have the article but the pages ore too big to scan, double page article.

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Subyroo
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Post by Subyroo » Mon May 09, 2011 3:10 pm

suthol wrote:It's the Dept of Fair Trading here in NSW and it falls under Australian Consumer Law.

I have the article but the pages ore too big to scan, double page article.
Got it right here:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/new-la ... 6050743555

YOU used to have Buckley's chance of returning a dreaded lemon to the car dealer for a replacement or a refund.

As for being compensated for the inconvenience, aggravation, lost income and costs racked up while taking the car from hell to the dealer for a further non-fix under warranty, well, make that virtually no chance either.

Many Australian consumers have tried but only a few very determined people have succeeded, usually after long, expensive battles against squads of car company lawyers in various courts.

The new Australian Consumer Law, developed by the states and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, came into force on January 1 this year. It's not as tough as US lemon laws, but it gives you much more protection than the maze of state and federal consumer regulations you previously had to navigate to make a case that your car resembled a particularly bitter variety of citrus fruit.

The Australian Consumer Law applies to most goods and services, including new and used cars, except those bought at auction or private sale, where you're still basically on your own.

When you buy a car from a dealer, you now have the protection of legally enforceable consumer guarantees, including that the car is of acceptable quality (which includes being safe, free from defects and durable) and reasonably fit for any purpose you specify when buying it, such as towing.

If you have what the ACL calls a major failure with your car, you are entitled to return it to the dealer to claim a refund, or a replacement -- your choice of an identical new car or one of similar value.

A major failure is when a reasonable consumer would not have bought the car if they had known about the problem, or when the car is substantially unfit for its normal purpose.

In other words -- the car is a lemon.

If you have a minor problem with the car, the dealer is still allowed to fix it under warranty.

If you have to get your car fixed at another workshop, you're entitled to claim the cost from the dealer who sold you the car.

However, if the dealer can't fix the problem within a reasonable time, you are also entitled to a refund or a replacement.

So the classic tactic of some dealers and manufacturers stringing you along by saying, "Just bring it back and we'll try to fix it under warranty" time and again until the warranty runs out, will no longer work.

And when the warranty expires you are still protected by the ACL's consumer guarantees -- but a used car's age and kilometres since you bought it will be taken into account when determining your entitlements.

The ACL also addresses one of the other great traps of the car business -- the extended warranty.

Many new and used car buyers have paid thousands of dollars for one of these, on the (mis)understanding that, first, it's the only way to cover themselves against repair costs when the factory warranty runs out and, second, that when they make a claim under the warranty, it will be honoured.

Those same car buyers have often found, to their great cost, that these extended warranties sometimes are not worth the paper they are written on.

They are, first and foremost, a way to increase a dealer's profit margin on the car. Most have very onerous conditions, including mandatory servicing schedules at the dealer who sold you the car. In the worst cases, consumers have called the helpline number on the warranty policy only to find there's nothing other than an answering machine on the other end of the line.

The ACL states that manufacturers and dealers must not pressure you into buying an extended warranty, or tell you that you have to buy one.

In fact, you now have rights under the ACL's guarantees that are equal to or greater than any supposed benefits you're paying for under an extended warranty policy.

If you think you've bought a lemon, the first step is to tell the dealer.

"You should go to the dealer who sold you the car and point out to them that they are legally obliged to provide you with a car that does what it is supposed to do under the ACL consumer guarantees," Katrina Lee from Choice says.

Dealers can no longer pass the buck by telling you to take your car's problems up with the manufacturer. The dealer is responsible, under the ACL, for providing you with a replacement or a refund. The dealer can then sort out reimbursement from the manufacturer. That's his problem, not yours.

However, the ACL also imposes similar customer guarantee obligations on manufacturers and importers, including car companies.

A manufacturer must guarantee, to you, the consumer, that the new car you have bought is of acceptable quality and matches the description on which you based your decision to buy it. A manufacturer must also guarantee the availability of repairs and spare parts for a reasonable time after you have bought the car.

If the manufacturer fails to meet one of these consumer guarantees, you also have rights against them.

You are entitled to ask for an amount covering the drop in value of the car as a consequence of the manufacturer's failure to meet any consumer guarantee.

You are also entitled to claim compensation for costs such as lost time, income or productivity caused by the problems with your car.

"We would hope that dealers understand that if they don't take these consumer guarantees seriously, then they leave themselves open to action from the ACCC," Lee says.

If the dealer wants to argue about whether your car is a lemon, tells you to keep bringing it back for warranty repairs or simply refuses to acknowledge your rights under the Australian Consumer Law, you should notify the ACCC, the federal regulator responsible for ensuring that dealers and manufacturers comply with the law, and contact the consumer tribunal in your state or territory, which will advise you on how to get some long overdue lemon-aid.
Peter

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teye
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Post by teye » Tue May 10, 2011 12:34 am

all the guys on here who have had vibrations at 2000 revs, mine was fixed recently, it was down to the large o ring on the exhaust joint. A new ring has cured it. Also my problems with engine knocking, tapping seem to be fixed by a replacement high pressure pump suction control valve. 6mths to sort it but finally made it!

I found this post on Uk legacy forum From an owner of an 09 legacy diesel :???:

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suthol
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Post by suthol » Tue May 10, 2011 3:47 pm

Still no phone calls about my parts, so either they don't expect blown fuses and glowplugs so have no spares or they are going through so many they can't keep up production.

Does anyone on here think it a little odd that the driveline problem is bang in the middle of the torque range where we are told by the dealers not to drive it :confused:

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MY11OBD
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Post by MY11OBD » Tue May 10, 2011 9:09 pm

Hi Teye did you take your car into subaru dealer? was the O ring fitted as waranty or did you pay? did you tell dealer about the fix or did they suggest and did it for you? how did you confirm shuddering fixed?

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teye
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Shudder

Post by teye » Tue May 10, 2011 11:20 pm

Sorry wasn't very clear that was a Copy of a post in uk legacy forum which seems connected thought it might be helpful.

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MY11OBD
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Post by MY11OBD » Wed May 11, 2011 5:36 am

Ok thats something at least to go back to service dept with and see what they have to say abt it.

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poundy
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Post by poundy » Wed May 11, 2011 7:53 pm

Teye, it'd be worth posting the original link if you could too.....

personally I don't really think an O ring is going to be the magic bullet here. Hopeful, but not willing to put money on it :)

Brett (MY11 2.0D with under 2k kms on the clock and waiting )

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MY11OBD
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Post by MY11OBD » Thu May 12, 2011 7:23 am

A quick Google found this link which I believe is the one Teye is refering to; andylpool post #46

http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/index.ph ... 7056&st=40

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suthol
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Post by suthol » Thu May 12, 2011 9:11 am

Time to ramp this up a bit. :evil:
Hi Subaru Australia,

I purchased a Diesel Forester Premium in July 2010 and am very dissatisfied with the performance of the vehicle since around the time of the first service at the recommended interval. The car now has just over 20000 Km on the odometer.

The car suffers from regular and significent shudder through the drivetrain between 1800 - 2400 RPM which requires shifting to progressively lower gears until the engine is close to the red line to make the shudder go away.

This invariably occurs when driving up hill at a constant speed and will continue to occur over the crest an onto the flat or downhill.

If I am in a position to accelerate up the hill the car will happily pull from 1000 RPM in 5th or 6th right through the problem zone without hesitation.

The issue definitely appears to relate to driving at constant throttle in the middle of the peak torque band where the engine should be at it's most efficient.

There is a definite lack of power when trying to accelerate from within the problem RPM range this makes overtaking a far more dangerous exercise than it should be.

The DPF warning light has also came on a number of times immediately following the 12500 Km service.

The vehicle has been back to the dealer a number of times over the shudder issue and also had the DPF ECU reset, this I am told is normally a chargeable item which is not acceptable.

On 26/04/11 the engine check light and ESC warning lights came on and the car was returned to the dealer to have these rectified, the diagnosis was that it has two blown glow plugs and a blown fuse all of which must be delivered from Japan. As of close of business 11/05/11 I have not been contacted to advise the parts have arrived and to bring the vehicle in to have these items fixed.

Although the blown glow plugs and lack of ESC don't affect the general drivability of the car I would expect that if it was involved in a serious accident that required formal investigation the lack of working ESC & ABS due to an irreplaceable fuse would reflect very badly on Subaru.

I purchased this car as a retirement vheicle for my wife and I and feel that it as it stands it will be a most unreliable and unsatisfactory long term solution.

The owners forums are full of people complaining about 2010 delivered Forester and Outback diesels with the same issues so my case is not isolated, I expect that Subaru are treating this as a most serious matter and will be resolving this as a matter of urgency.

I trust that all the issues with my vehicle will be resolved very quickly, failing a complete resolution I will be holding discussions with the Dept of Fair Trading about whether this vehicle is indeed fit for purpose.

Regards

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Thu May 12, 2011 10:39 am

typo alert! - over teh crest - 5th line down

Is a dealer likely to do a recall on such a problem, or deal with it as it turns up, with little comment. I don't suppose any owner has been asked to be patient due to the recent disaster in Japan?

Maybe a date six weeks ahead could be chosen so everyone with this problem books their car in for warranty issue on same day nationally - not for service - just warranty issue and leave it there until resolved ?

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suthol
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Post by suthol » Thu May 12, 2011 11:12 am

steptoe wrote:typo alert! - over teh crest - 5th line down
Thanks for the assistance :mrgreen:, also fixed four other typos that were in there. :rolleyes:

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skipalami
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Post by skipalami » Thu May 12, 2011 5:06 pm

To my understanding FHI engineers are stripping down some affected vehicles as we speak to investigate the shudder.

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Thu May 12, 2011 10:36 pm

they may want to sample our Diesel fuel too!

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Mick2642
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Post by Mick2642 » Thu May 12, 2011 11:10 pm

Does everyone in this thread gear up at 1,500 rpm or something?
Sign here... :twisted:

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pitrack_1
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Post by pitrack_1 » Fri May 13, 2011 1:05 am

Suthol,

good for you! (writing the letter, not the car issues)

Might I suggest contacting the DFT before sending the letter. They may be able to run over (bad pun, sorry) the letter for you and offer advice or suggest improvements. E.g., you could ask for a written response within (say) 2 weeks. I have found DFT helpful before. And if you can open a issue, they will be interested and possibly track the reply. Don't worry about 'fit for purpose', just let Subaru know the DFT has been contacted, that's usually enough. And make sure Subaru addresses YOUR issues, point-by-point if necessary and with clear outcomes and timeframes. Don't accept some generic catch-all statement, obfuscation, issue diversion or even blame return (e.g. your driving style).

Perhaps, if you are a member, cc in your local/state motoring organisation (NRMA I assume) as well.

I have experienced, for example, a Telco become vastly more interested and responsive in addressing issues when they know the Telco Ombudsman is following. Another time, a local complaint about a bus company generated a response within a month from the state Minister's office that my issues would be considered during the company's contract/licence renewal. I'm sure that got the bus co's attention!

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suthol
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Post by suthol » Fri May 13, 2011 8:41 am

Well I did get a same day response and it would appear that they are taking a proper interest in the problems.

As asked by someone else, is it our fuel quality who knows but do we really think our fuel companies will spend millions to clean up their act because one manufacturer complains on behalf of a few owners, probably no.:(

Anyway here's the reply from Subaru. Note I didn't name the dealer they did.
Dear Mr King,

Thank you for your email to feedback at Subaru.

We appreciate your concern in to your Forester, the shuddering in your vehicle is a concern that Subaru Australia are currently investigating. We are speaking to Fuji Heavy Industries, the manufactures of Subaru vehicles, to further understand and investigate this. Once we know what is the cause of this and what can be done, we will be in contact to get this put into place. In regards to the glow plugs, Sutherland Subaru have been in contact with our Technical department here at Subaru Australia and we are assisting in this repair to get you vehicle repaired.

Once again thank you for writing to Subaru Australia.

Kind Regards,
Subaru (Aust) Pty Limited

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MY11OBD
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Post by MY11OBD » Fri May 13, 2011 9:44 pm

suthol, my response from subaru was very similar. I think they use the same response and edit based on locality. I think we should all email and get written confirmation of a date since the longer this goes for then the more liekly we will loose value in the vehicle...

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