Bearings gone again

MidcoastScooby · Post by **MidcoastScooby** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:24 am

Hi all, I'm a newbie to this forum and thought I'd introduce myself before I ask questions, apologies for the length of my first post too!

I've got a 1989 L-Series Sportswagon, I've had it for 7 years and for the first 4 years it spent lots of time on sand as I'm a keen beach fisho. I fitted 14" sunraysia used rims with 195/65/14 tyres which worked well on the sand, it also looked the part;). It also got a look in on some swampy tracks around where I live and it tested my driving skills as some of the ruts caused by big fourbies carved out knee deep gutters. It's all about wheel placement when you've got a car that sits low on standard suspension I learned. This car taught me heaps about offroad driving and I surprised lots of people in bigger fourbies when I stayed with them on local tracks and the beaches. It just romps over soft sand too with 15lbs psi in them.

However it was taken off the road 3 years ago and put back over a year ago when my eldest son got his P's, I refitted the standard 13" rims as tyres are cheaper for them. It spent all of the year on black-top. He's now moved to Sydney to go to uni and no longer needs a car. So my second son is just about to get his Ps anytime now and has taken over, it will also be his first car. He's a high school student, more outdoorsy, a surfer and is keen to do some off road exploring with it which I think is great. He remembers its capabilites.

He gave it an immaculate detailing, fitted a new stereo and repainted the old Sunraysia's and put 2 new 185/75/14 tyres on it, 2 more to go on later. All on his earning from working part-time at Woolies. The car looks fantastic and actually sits higher with this profile than the 195/65/14s. I'm going to ask him to join this forum, hope he does he might learn a few things. He's keen with the tools too.

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NOW THE MECHANICAL QUESTIONS!
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I'm a hands-on backyard mechanic and I've always done my own maintenance and repairs on this and all my/family cars. I've got lots of tools and not afraid to use 'em.

BEARINGS:
The wheel bearings are becoming an issue again! I'm confused with the torque required for the L-Series and there seems to be conflicting reports on this and other Subie forums. I, like many others, don't have a torque wrench that reachs the required spec so use the pipe on the breaker bar trick and turn-till-you-fart method.

But this seems to have killed one of the new rear bearings as the nut was constantly becoming loose. It eventually died in 20,000klm and chewed out the hub in the swing arm groove...yes son No.1 did not tell me it was making noises to warn me when it got real bad.

The bearings for the rear are freakin' expensive as they are the complete hub kit as you know, and yes they have 2 tapered roller bearings inside side. The original spec in the Haynes discusses perhaps the older style of bearing. Torquing tapered bearings till you fart has always been avoided when I fiddle with motorcycle bearings. Tighten 'em too much and you can actually dent the races therefore are cactus. So why are they being recommended in the Subie's application especially on something that rotates continuosly at speed?

So, PLEASE tell me, what is the actual torquing spec for front and rear wheel bearings.

CV JOINTS:
Front right was replaced with new + new bearings and is OK. I transferred the old right CV to the left as it was in better condition. However the new bearings won't fit the old shaft!

They are 6207s and it stumped me why it wouldn't fit (inner diameter too small and was marking the shaft). So I refitted the old bearings. It's done around 7,000k's this way and something is now going wrong...to be expected though as they are older parts. I managed to torque it up a bit more and get enough rotation to use the next split pin hole in the axle. Sort of worked for about a week of short hops. But now....aaargh...

Tell me, what is the 'squelching' noise I've been hearing? I did get this noise on the rear bearing which collapsed. But the front? I don't think it is a bearing noise and the CV seems OK as it doesn't *clack-clack* at full lock in either direction. The squelch noise seems to follow each tyre rotation and increases with rapidity as speeds rise, just like the back bearing did. It seems to stop when the clutch is disengaged which must be a clue but I can't figure it out. Is this a bearing problem in disguise or is it the inner CV joint? What is my next plan of attack? I definately is not brake related.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance. Pic to follow.

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:47 am

It is my understanding that You cant over torque subaru bearings as no load is put onto the bearing when the nut is done up.
But I have not owned a l series so am not sure.

I thought 2wd subarus were the only ones that had taper bearings?

Make sure the washer is on the right way! Have a close look at it and you will notice that it is not flat, If it is not put on the right way it will come loose very eaisly.
I would even recommend replacing these washers every now and then especially if they have been put on the wrong way (the high centre should face out)

Also the sunraiser wheels have a very large offset and will put extra load on the bearings.
My old my had these and I would only get about 40-80000k out of the front bearings, the rears were ok!
I always put lots of grease on the shaft and stand on the breaker bar till it is really tight! the grease allows you to get it off again.

I am not sure what is going on in the front, maby it had 2wd front shafts or something? Was this car always 4wd or converted?
Check the hub nut and washer are in good condition, If it has become loose for to long you will need to replace all these parts, as no mater how tight you get it, if the spline is flogged out it will still move around and make noises.

Post by **Alex** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:13 pm

hey mate and welcome

ive had this problem with the shafts being too fat to slip through the bearings, there was microns in it though. Take the shaft back from where you bought it and get another brand.

also you cant over-tighten the front wheel bearings, i chuck a massive breaker bar on it and jump on it, im a big boy and this makes them super tight. NEVER back off the nut to fit the split pin in, try and tighten it to the next notch.

I had my l-series for about 5 years and it has had 14inch rims on it, its WHOLE life. I replaced the wheel bearings when it hit 300,000km and they seamed to be the originals still. Used some sealed bearing and they where great, with no issues. I then upgraded to 15inch rims and 29inch tyres, also had no issues with bearings with this setup. I never replaced the rear wheel bearings while i had the car.

Next thing is to make sure the hub isnt bent. I had this problem with my liberty, it was chewing through wheel bearings like there was no tomorrow. It had me stumped for soo long, then one day i was spinning the hub only to see it was bent. Replaced it and all was fine.

The squelching noise youre hearing is probably the thrust bearing if the clutch is effecting when you hear the noise. Infact i'll bet thats what it is. The only fix for that is a replacement.

unfortunately l-series are becoming old now and all these things need replacement at the age theyre getting to

alex

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:26 pm

in a fridge so too cold to read and understand, but I do recall a very good mechanic refunding his customer the cost of repair after he failed to grease the REAR bearing on MY wagon, thought they were sealed with grease, they were not, needed grease loaded up on fitting. Did you need to add grease to L rear bearing.

MidcoastScooby · Post by **MidcoastScooby** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:30 am

78sti wrote:It is my understanding that You cant over torque subaru bearings as no load is put onto the bearing when the nut is done up.
But I have not owned a l series so am not sure.

The torque value is debatable, I followed advice on this forum and USMB and went with the TTYF (Torque Till You Fart) method as described but that's proved to be the reason the bearings have collapsed, in my humble opinion, particularly the rear. Haynes says 196Nm (144ft/lb) for the rear bearings in a 4WD L-Series and my torque wrench goes to 150ft/lb. TTYF to me is beyond 150ft/lb and I went beyond that believing that it needed heaps more coz that's what the expereinced people said.

But retorquing 3 times over a year, because the nut loosened was telling me that the bearings were collapsing. Evidence of it loosening was rust powder appearing around the washer, hold the nut and jiggle and it moved.

I thought 2wd subarus were the only ones that had taper bearings?

Dunno what they have bu ttheir torque spec is only 49Nm which is 149Nm less than the 4WD!

Make sure the washer is on the right way! Have a close look at it and you will notice that it is not flat, If it is not put on the right way it will come loose very eaisly.

Yup right way around, the bevelled edge facing out.

I always put lots of grease on the shaft and stand on the breaker bar till it is really tight! the grease allows you to get it off again.

Here it is again "stand on the breaker bar till it is really tight!". I'm 100kg and I did that a few years ago and twisted the squared part of the short extension (have a pic to prove). I wish people would use torque figures instead!

I am not sure what is going on in the front, maby it had 2wd front shafts or something? Was this car always 4wd or converted?

Factory 4wd Sportswagon (Sunwagon?).

Check the hub nut and washer are in good condition, If it has become loose for to long you will need to replace all these parts, as no mater how tight you get it, if the spline is flogged out it will still move around and make noises.

Hmmm, interesting about the spline being flogged out. That is one thing that I have not checked. I assume you are reffering to the hub/disk's spline? This might be the issue with the rear hub...thinking thinking...very interesting.

Thanks for the feedback.

MidcoastScooby · Post by **MidcoastScooby** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:16 am

Alex wrote:hey mate and welcome

ive had this problem with the shafts being too fat to slip through the bearings, there was microns in it though. Take the shaft back from where you bought it and get another brand.

Thanks for the welcome.

I got the GSP(?) brand in a blue box from suzukispares (eBay), same ones being sold by a Subie specialist I found elswhere on the net. I called suzukispares and they were adamant the shaft was the correct diameter and accused the bearing as being incorrect (NSK-Japan 6207 C3)...who do I believe? I measured them with a digital vernier (of average quality), shaft OD was 35.12mm and bearing ID 34.65mm, that's 0.47mm difference. I'm no engineer but that looks to me like it should be a good interference fit. In reality it was still too tight and it felt like I was going to strip the nut if I kept on tightening it or worse gouge the hardened face of the shaft! I tried the freezer-in-a-can and sprayed the axle but that didn't help.

also you cant over-tighten the front wheel bearings, i chuck a massive breaker bar on it and jump on it, im a big boy and this makes them super tight. NEVER back off the nut to fit the split pin in, try and tighten it to the next notch.

See here it is again "chuck a massive breaker bar on it and jump on it", I too am heavy at 100kg and please read the previous post of those results. Front and rear driveshaft nuts on a L-series 4WD are both 196Nm but I have no problems with torquing the front as I know the bearing faces are flat and not tapered. But something is still amiss, what it is I dunno.

I had my l-series for about 5 years and it has had 14inch rims on it, its WHOLE life. I replaced the wheel bearings when it hit 300,000km and they seamed to be the originals still. Used some sealed bearing and they where great, with no issues. I then upgraded to 15inch rims and 29inch tyres, also had no issues with bearings with this setup. I never replaced the rear wheel bearings while i had the car.

That mileage with Sunraysia's is reassuring. Sealed bearings, the kit is only supplied with open ones. Did you open up yours and regrease them? You obviously still used the oil seals?

Next thing is to make sure the hub isnt bent. I had this problem with my liberty, it was chewing through wheel bearings like there was no tomorrow. It had me stumped for soo long, then one day i was spinning the hub only to see it was bent. Replaced it and all was fine.

I'm not sure which "hub" you are referring to? The disk rotor hub? I didn't think you could bend this, perhaps a warped rotor but that wouldn't affect it spinning straight on the axle?

The squelching noise youre hearing is probably the thrust bearing if the clutch is effecting when you hear the noise. Infact i'll bet thats what it is. The only fix for that is a replacement.

I'm almost sure it is not directly clutch related as the noise is loud and clear from the left wheel area when you walk along next to the car as it is driven at walking pace and beyond. If I don't nip up the nut the noise remains. Intererestingly though is that when it is lowered off the work stands there is absolute silence for the first 50klms. This is why I'm suspecting the inner CV, clutch disengaged (freespin) takes load off the CV? But what do I know?

unfortunately l-series are becoming old now and all these things need replacement at the age theyre getting to

alex

The car doesn't know it's 20 years old

, but I suspect any car with 348k klm will be showing lots of wear too. However, I'm surprised how well this thing has stayed together, if it wasn't for the bearings and CV, it's lived with us for 100,000klm without any other hassles. Well the Sanden air-con system sucks but we all know that.

Thanks for the feedback Alex.

Does your Liberty have a low range box as standard? The young fella is already keen to save up for that shape wagon.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:35 am

grease?

MidcoastScooby · Post by **MidcoastScooby** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:48 am

steptoe wrote:grease?

Too much in the rear that it oozed out when tightened after a couple of days...no shortage there!:rolleyes:

I still reckon the rears were overtightened.

GTlegs · Post by **GTlegs** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:54 pm

Per the 1988 Factory Service Manual for the L-Series, the following is the process required for rear bearings for 4WD vehicles.

1) Temporarily tighten the axle nut to 49NM (5kg-m, 36 ft-lb), and turn drum back and forth alternatively several times to properly seat bearing.

2) Correct the nut torque. This is done as follows. Attach spring balance (ie a spring scale that goes up to 2KG - no more). Put the scale hook around one of the wheel studs. Hold the scale at 90 degrees to the wheel nut (ie with the wheel stud at the very top, the scal should be pulled horisontally). Pull the scale evenly until the a reading of .85 - 1.25 kg is achieved.

Loosen the axle nut until the hub just starts to move (ensure the scale still reads the same) - your torque is now correct.

3) Use a new lock washer and bend it to secure the nut.

From myself - make sure you dont use a high temp bearing grease. Passenger car hub temperature never gets up to the HD (eg truck) temperature this grease is designed for and hence does not lube properly. Use normal bearing grease instead.

MidcoastScooby · Post by **MidcoastScooby** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:12 pm

GTlegs wrote:Per the 1988 Factory Service Manual for the L-Series, the following is the process required for rear bearings for 4WD vehicles.

Thanks for the feedback GTlegs. Good straightforward instructions, just have to find a 2kg scale, I've got a fishing scale up to around 40kg I think but that's over the top for your instructions.

3) Use a new lock washer and bend it to secure the nut.

Now this one sent alarm bells ringing. The L-Series does not have a lockwasher, it has a split pin in a castellated nut. Are you sure these are instructions for a L-Series? BTW the first instruction to 49Nm is exactly the torque setting for 2WD, the 4WD requires 3-4 times that. With your instructions even at 2kg pull that is nowhere near the spec. Can you please check.

GTlegs · Post by **GTlegs** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:19 pm

MidcoastScooby wrote:Now this one sent alarm bells ringing. The L-Series does not have a lockwasher, it has a split pin in a castellated nut. Are you sure these are instructions for a L-Series? BTW the first instruction to 49Nm is exactly the torque setting for 2WD, the 4WD requires 3-4 times that. With your instructions even at 2kg pull that is nowhere near the spec. Can you please check.

Whoops!!! It is for 2WD!

The pages were stuck, and the 4WD is exactly over the page. Sincere apologies. Here is what the factory manual says for 4WD - these are installation instructions only and assume you have removed everything).

1) Insert inner race of inner bearing onto the spindle and install outer races of inner bearing and outer bearing and spacer using press.

2) Apply grease of 20 to 30 grams to bearing outer race in housing.

3) Insert spindle from inside and press inner race of outer bearing from outside by using a pipe of 35mm in inner diameter while tapping it with a hammer.

4) Instal ring nut to housing by using a torque wrench and Subaru Socket number 925550000. Tightening torque is 172 - 221 NM (17.5 - 22.5 kg-m).

5) Lock the ring nut by staking a point on the housing surface facing the ring nut grove.

6) Install outer and inner oil seals by using special tool 925530000 (ensure oil seals are renewed every time the hub assembly is opened up).

7) Install rear brake assembly and connect brake pipes and hoses.

8| Temporarily fit brake drum, center piece, washer spring and castle nut to spindle in this order.

9) Play on spindle when mounting brake drum is not a fault.

10) Ensure washer spring is oriented the correct way around.

11) Bleed brake system

12) Tighten castle nut. Tightening torque is 196 NM (20 KG-m).

13) After tightening castle nut to the specified torque, tighten further within 30 degrees to align holses on the nut and the spindle.

14) Insert a NEW cotter pin and bend it firmly with foot brake applied to lock the wheel and axle.

Thats it.

MidcoastScooby · Post by **MidcoastScooby** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:16 pm

GTlegs wrote:Whoops!!! It is for 2WD!
The pages were stuck, and the 4WD is exactly over the page.

I thought it sounded odd. And I thought only Playboy magazine pages got stuck together! "Honest I only read the Subie workshop manuals for the articles."... yeah right.

4) Instal ring nut to housing by using a torque wrench and Subaru Socket number 925550000. Tightening torque is 172 - 221 NM (17.5 - 22.5 kg-m

Now that one is a toughie, way above my torque wrench. So I tapped it around till it stopped...perhaps the problem? Too much at the big ring nut which therefore means if torqued correctly on the castle nut it would be too much or the bearing is poking out too far?

9) Play on spindle when mounting brake drum is not a fault.

That's good, I was thinking that may have contributed to the problem.

12) Tighten castle nut. Tightening torque is 196 NM (20 KG-m).
13) After tightening castle nut to the specified torque, tighten further within 30 degrees to align holses on the nut and the spindle.

Did that but didn't seem enough as the bearings started to "squelch" after a few weeks driving. I checked with my torque wrench, it does reach 196Nm =145ft/lbs (t.wrench max is 150ft/lbs) so I gave it more. Perhaps the problem as mentioned earlier was the torque I set at the big ring nut?