Venom: H6 Gen2 Liberty GX

Post by **Alex** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:25 pm

awesome! and good stereo gear

one day i will this car doing the dirty out bush....one day!

alex

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:18 pm

Glad I could help...

Like the switches lol...look serious haha

Do they have LEDs?

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:32 pm

Lookin good.

Have you got internal pics of the oil dripper and pick-up?

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:38 pm

Took it for a test drive and my front left wheel bearing had finally shit itself. Didn't feel comfortable driving it so the hub is currently apart waiting for a new bearing to be fitted tomorrow. Looks like my celebration beer came too early.

The rocket switches don't have LEDs, its pretty obvious when they're on

I will wire up a light from the mechanical switch at the diff lock mechanism, so i know for certain when its engaged.

No internal pics of the gearbox, i never got around to asking the builder before he started. Pickup is a banjo bolt in place of an unused switch below the reverse and nuetral switches, you can see the hose wrapped in white tape in the picture of the linkages in the car. Bennie is getting the same box built soon by the same guy, hopefully there are some pics taken of that process.

The front LSD certainly handles differently. The steering wheel wants to return to centre with more force. If you back off on the power mid corner that reduces and you kinda swerve a bit. Not uncomfortable, just something new to get used to.

Replaced the throttle postion sensor during all of this and its actually got more torque now even after going from a 4.44 to 3.7 diff ratio.

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:34 pm

Oh bugger! All big jobs seem to always have a hiccup so hopefully that's your only one

When you're doing the light for the diff lock maybe do one for the oil pump too...
Weird how the front LSD has that effect but like you say shouldn't be too hard to get used to it. Big test will be driving it in the wet...

ScubyRoo · Post by **ScubyRoo** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:54 am

Looks great mate! You'll be loving a proper low range for sure!

Venom wrote:
Replaced the throttle postion sensor during all of this and its actually got more torque now even after going from a 4.44 to 3.7 diff ratio.

How much was your TPS?

How are the gear ratios feeling at 3.7? After switching to 4.11 I'd never go back!

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:15 pm

Wheel bearing sorted, been hearing its death grinding for the past 3 months. Good to be rid of it.

3.7 diffs with a H6 is a ****ing ripper, 4.44 is for turbos. I am now completely in love with this car:mrgreen: RPM at 100 have drop from 2750 to 2250, 110 is just over 2500. Anyone who says the H6 is shit at low revs has no idea what potential these have. Maybe behind the auto, but not with a setup like this.

I'm driving in 5th gear doing 60km/h, about 1600 RPM and it will just cruise on up to 110 without having to downshift. Holding 2nd and this thing just pulls likes a freight train from 20km/h upto 110. Thats only using at most maybe 25% throttle, generally it only needs <10% to drive around. Standard Ej22 clutch and pressure plate are holding up fine, no sign of slip and its 100 times better than what i pulled out of it (for obvious reasons).

Serious amounts of low down torque. I was afraid 3.7's would kill this engine, but the effect is totally the opposite. It's now so much more driveable, and probably faster as the taller gearing makes better use of the torque. So happy it worked out this way, considering the plan all along was for 4.1's.

TPS was about $120 shipped from Rockauto.com

Post by **Alex** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:32 pm

gotta love a happy boy in love with his car. Awesome!

guyph_01 · Post by **guyph_01** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:12 pm

Very very interesting, Does the box have the L series lower range gears?
I'm thinking of doing something similar:)

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:34 pm

Yep, L series low range.

pezimm · Post by **pezimm** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:17 pm

Venom wrote:3.7 diffs with a H6 is a ****ing ripper, 4.44 is for turbos.

Is that a bit counter-intuitive? I would have thought that a bigger ratio would allow you to crawl a bit better...

Sure, it would keep your RPMs a little higher on the free-way, but it would allow your engine to send power to your wheels at lower speeds, wouldn't it??

Then again, if you've got a L-series low range, that's a big ratio on its own...

Interesting... makes me think again about my diff ratios...

Pedro.

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:46 pm

pezimm wrote:Is that a bit counter-intuitive? I would have thought that a bigger ratio would allow you to crawl a bit better...

Sure, it would keep your RPMs a little higher on the free-way, but it would allow your engine to send power to your wheels at lower speeds, wouldn't it??

Then again, if you've got a L-series low range, that's a big ratio on its own...

Interesting... makes me think again about my diff ratios...

Pedro.

Dont even think bout it Pedro lol

Your car's driveline is awesome as it is!

I was very envious watching you cruise up that hill that took me bout 4 goes & even Greg had to attack it. You just cruised lol...

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:53 pm

Venom wrote:Wheel bearing sorted, been hearing its death grinding for the past 3 months. Good to be rid of it.

3.7 diffs with a H6 is a ****ing ripper, 4.44 is for turbos. I am now completely in love with this car:mrgreen: RPM at 100 have drop from 2750 to 2250, 110 is just over 2500. Anyone who says the H6 is shit at low revs has no idea what potential these have. Maybe behind the auto, but not with a setup like this.

I'm driving in 5th gear doing 60km/h, about 1600 RPM and it will just cruise on up to 110 without having to downshift. Holding 2nd and this thing just pulls likes a freight train from 20km/h upto 110. Thats only using at most maybe 25% throttle, generally it only needs <10% to drive around. Standard Ej22 clutch and pressure plate are holding up fine, no sign of slip and its 100 times better than what i pulled out of it (for obvious reasons).

Serious amounts of low down torque. I was afraid 3.7's would kill this engine, but the effect is totally the opposite. It's now so much more driveable, and probably faster as the taller gearing makes better use of the torque. So happy it worked out this way, considering the plan all along was for 4.1's.

I'd love my final drive to be doing bout 2500 in 5th at 100kmh as long as i dont lose my nice short 1st gear. In fact I'd like it to be even shorter lol. But then again I'm missing 2cyl & 1.0L!!!

Considering what your car was capable of with NO low range, i think this setup will be ideal

Look out Walhalla haha

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:24 am

I found with my old 60 series Cruiser that having a really torquey motor and a really low low range it was pretty pointless in sand in fact in the couple of hundred times I used it in the dunes or on the beach I doubt I'd have used low more than half a dozen times, there is no way it would go up a long steep hill in low but would fly up in high, though it is great for rock crawling if that's what you want to use it for, personally with the low down grunt you say you have I'd rather a set up like mine which is 4.44 in a Liberty dual range but with a taller 5th if it could be found.

I can't remember the times I had to stop and tell people to put their 4X4's into high when they were stuck in a big gulley so they could drive out, best was a Range Rover who'd made about 10 attempts screaming it up a hill in low 1st 2nd 3rd and running out of puff half way up, I yelled to put it in high & he flew out first attempt.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:51 am

I feel like doing a bit of a Disco and writting an essay on why i'm doing what i'm doing. Needless to say i've been thinking about how i could build the best off-roading subaru for about 2 years now. I went about my L series totally arse about and learnt alot from that experience. To me the best offroading subaru is still a car (daily driver) and i want to it drive like a car on road, off-road i want it to go where i point it. What i see is a some people trying to turn their Subaru into what it isn't, a jacked up 4WD. It ain't, and with independant front and rear suspension it will be shit if you do. Height for a solid axle 4WD generally means more articulation (longer softer springs), for a Subaru it means less (hard springs compress less = less travel!). Suspension lift/strut for a Subaru means more under diff and engine clearance, exactly what you already have in spades with independant suspension. Park you car next to a 4WD with 33's and compare your diff clearance, you'll probably have more and you only have maybe 27" tyres. You'll never have enough height to clear everything anyway, so why not just settle for factory suspension geometry and protect your under carriage? You need to protect it anyway.

Two wheels in hanging in the air is what stops our cars in VIC. Either from lack of suspension travel and two diagonally opposing wheels in the air, or bottoming out e.g when going through ruts.

Accepting the fact that your underbody/drivetrain will never clear every obstacle or rut (because it won't), the next issue is loss of traction when you do. It will never have the articulation to keep them on the ground either. So we get to the Subarus achilles heal off road, OPEN DIFFS, not clearance. I have experienced my car offroad for 18 months now and i'm telling you, what stops it is loss of traction because of open diffs. Watching others i know what stops them is loss of traction because of open diffs. Not lack of low range. No low range just stopped me front getting going again half way up a hill, AFTER i lose traction. Subaruby in his MY gets over things our group doesn't because of his rear locker, simple. It doesn't have the biggest tyres (26"), the biggest lift/drivetrain clearance (2" body lift and factory suspension height) or even the best suspension travel (torsion bar rear end!), yet its the most capable car in our group by far! The EA81 handles everything, even towing my Liberty up a great big f-n hill. It all comes down to that locker and good gearing.

So lets sum it up. A Subarus biggest downfall is open diffs, ignoring articulation/entry/departure/body clearance because you accept all of that as shithouse when you take a road car offroad. Besides, i've never hit my front or rear bar so its obviously good enough as it is. Most people go for HD springs. What does that do? reduce travel. What does reduced travel do? Lift wheels off the group MORE. What does that do? Stop your car MORE because of those shit open diffs.

Hence my approach, accept the fact that 1 - you'll never clear everything and 2 - you'll always lift two wheels at some point. So first thing is to preserve what little suspension travel I have, limiting how often i lift those diagonally opposing wheels. Body lift for factory suspension height and travel, and some body clearance. As Disco says your can't beat factory engineered suspension geometry. Extra underbody and drivetrain clearance from bigger tyres, because its clearance without compromising suspension travel. So i've just gained body and drivetrain clearance and kept my factory suspension travel.

Next step is addressing those pesky open diffs. My car has had a vicous rear LSD since i bought it. It may as well not be there. Its useless. An air rear locker is a pipe dream, and the detroit may as well not exist it is so rare. Next best thing that is readily available at a decent price is a clutch pack LSD. Thats the rear sorted. Geared helical/torsens exist but they're more pricey, maybe good if you don't want the maintenance of the clutch pack.

Subaru's centre viscous isn't ideal for off-road and it wears out and costs a fortune to replace. DCCD is definitely better and easy to obtain. i went with the vacuum diff lock because i already owned it. Plus having the open centre diff on road will hopefully reduce the wear on my clutch pack rear.

Next is the front diff. Not much choice here. Clutch pack fronts aren't cheap, and there's the problem of maintaining them. Definitely not as easy to access as the rear one. Geared front LSD is relatively cheap new (OBX ripoff was anyway) and its maintenance free. ProbablyMaybe not as good as the clutch one (time will tell), but with the centre locked and the rear clutch pack working its shouldn't have to do a whole lot.

Now it's time to think about gearing. I've taken my car to 95% of the places all of you guys do and all without low range. Albeit a bit faster than i want to sometimes, but my point is we don't need rediculous rock crawl speeds for what we do. L series low range addresses that problem to the best possible extent without going custom low range or some sort of external transfer case. I've gone 3.7 and improved my gearing on road (for my particular car) and with L series low range i've significantly improved my crawl speed at the same time. That's just catered perfectly to the on-road/off-road compromise of this vehicle.

Tyres. The best tyres in the world will not do a whole lot for you if they spin in the air every time you lift two wheels. Again, from my observations and experience it is not the tyres that let people down its those open diffs. A good set of ATs fit that on road/off road comprimise perfectly. How often have tyres let you down when you've got all 4 wheels making contact with the ground? Very rare. Subaruby uses HT's and it doesn't stop that car.

Now i'm not having a go at people who put in strut lifts or HD springs, and please don't take offense. I don't mean it to anyone in particular and its certainly not personal. Each to their own and if that suits your particular situation then by all means go for it. if i was Pedro with a turbo XT and airbags i'd do exactly what he's done with 1" strut lift and HD springs. I don't carry much weight, so i don't need HD springs for that. Especially take into account we don't have sand in VIC, to me strut/suspension lift is a sound way to go if you do alot of sand driving. In VIC the thing that stops our cars most often is two wheels hanging in the air.

What i am saying is i've put a huge amount of thought into the best setup for my particular car and what i use it for, and i'm confident in the past few days i've basically achieved that setup. I didn't by a H6 Gen2 without airbags to build my dream offroader by accident. Fair enough 3.7 wasn't planned initially, but from my point of view worked out better in the end. Enough talk from me, time to let my car do the talking from this point on

:mrgreen:

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:35 am

haha yeah that was an essay lol

I know i dont have much experience but from what i've seen from others & experienced my self i gotta agree 100%...open diffs is the biggest hindrance to our Subies offroad performance. I havent given up on more articulation (there has been mention from SumoParts.com bout 2" raised, long travel struts

) or Taza's locker diff (he has a lot of obstacles to overcome but if he's determined enough i'm sure he can do it).

I love the combination of open/locked centre diff with the push of a button & the front/rear LSDs, the awesome torque from the H6 & the dual range for crawling up steep tracks. The only thing i'm not sure of yet is its driveability on wet bitumen...tight LSDs can be a real handful.

As an onroad/offroad car, i cant wait to see it in action!

:mrgreen:

guyph_01 · Post by **guyph_01** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:09 pm

Definitely agree:) Planning similar mods to mine:)

A+ For that essay:)

Post by **Alex** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:46 pm

i personally think suspension travel is more of a hinderance than open diffs. As long as the wheels are the ground youll get traction.

my old SWB patrol had the full flexy kit in it, 3inch springs with 4inch shocks, no sway bars etc etc, the stock lsd rear (which is a real lsd) and it went everywhere i pointed it. Literally everywhere, it was boring.

The second biggest hinderance to a subaru is no real low range. Its a good thing in sand to have a low range when the going gets real tough. Chuck her in first gear low range and literally let it idle its way out of a bog. The gearing was so low i could take off with no accelerator and get her into 5th gear low range with no accelerator use at all. (it was a super torquey 4.2l petrol motor tho)

then theres the steep, slippery hill descents. 1st gear low range and the car wouldnt do any more than 10km.hr allowing you to idle down super steep slippery hills when its extremely dangerous to use your brakes.

but we have to respect our subis and realise theyll never get as far as full coil sprung 4x4.

I still enjoy subaru 4x4ing more than big 4x4ing just because its a challenge!

Venom its good to see a really well thought out, planned car. Im sure it would make it extremely capable

alex

pezimm · Post by **pezimm** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:14 pm

Venom, really liked your essay!

Certainly your plans make a lot of sense... If there was any weak point in your car with the previous driveline, it is most definitely gone now!

I absolutely agree with the suspension travel problem. In my case, I think that's the Achilles heel of the Foz... As you said, as long as we've got our wheels on the ground, we generally get through. You're just showing that with good planning and creativity, we can overcome these issues and take our cars beyond what they've been designed for!

Really nice!!

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:28 pm

Probably the biggest difference between the East & the West, we build for mostly sand whereas yours are mostly built for off road, my reasoning for the heavy springs was to help prevent bottoming out and of course lift, though my articulation would be close to zero it hasn't really been a problem yet, the soon to be fitted DCCD should help the front OBX & Viscous rear get me most places I want to go but agree with what you are saying as far as real offroading goes.