Scan tool 1997 Liberty EJ22e

[Mark_F]

Hi folks,
Long time lurker but new member.
Hope this is the right place.
Our, up until now, very, VERY, reliable Liberty wagon has started to play up. It cuts out randomly and can be restarted without turning the ignition off. No check engine light. It's got me stumped.
To avoid throwing lots of money at it I'd like to be able to get it scanned for possible codes. Problem is that around here (Moe, Victoria) there's no-one that can scan it.

Question is; Is there anyone in the Latrobe Valley area (Victoria) who has a scan tool who can scan it for me ?

Cheers,
Mark F...

[El_Freddo]

G’day Mark,

There’s a way to read the codes with some plugs under the dash if you’re into some DIY on your Liberty:

viewtopic.php?t=14372

Also consider that it could be other things that the ECU isn’t responsible for. Eg: a dying coil pack or fuel pump.

How many kms on your Liberty?

How often does this random cut out occur and is there a time gap between the first and subsequent cut outs each day/trip?

No immobiliser to deal with?

Any other mods?

Cheers

Bennie

[Mark_F]

G’day Mark,

There’s a way to read the codes with some plugs under the dash if you’re into some DIY on your Liberty:

viewtopic.php?t=14372

This may well be the way to go. It seems that there is nobody around the Latrobe Valley who can scan it apart from the dealer in Traralgon. And of course, being a dealer a kings ransom is required....

Also consider that it could be other things that the ECU isn’t responsible for. Eg: a dying coil pack or fuel pump.

Given that when it cuts out there is no coughing or spluttering I'd be inclined to not consider the fuel pump. I would and have considered the coil pack which is on my list of suspects.

How many kms on your Liberty?

About 360k km's.

How often does this random cut out occur and is there a time gap between the first and subsequent cut outs each day/trip?

It may be a few hundred metres or it may be over 50km's. Not consistent at all.

No immobiliser to deal with?

Any other mods?

Thankfully no mods or immobiliser to deal with.

Given that when it dies there is no check engine light I'm reluctant to blame the crank angle sensor. I'm not discounting it completely though.

I'm mostly convinced that it's not fuel related as there is no partial loss of power or coughing and spluttering it just dies and will start every time with a quick turn of the key. It very rarely restarts on its own in gear with the clutch engaged (foot off the pedal).

Thanks heaps Bennie. I have more food for thought.
I'm no stranger to this sort of carry on - I also have a Land Rover Discovery 2 Td5 with electrics by Lucas (Prince of Darkness)...

Cheers

Bennie

[Subyroo]

How long since the fuel filter was last changed?
It could be clogged and finding it hard to maintain a constant supply.

[Mark_F]

G’day Mark,

There’s a way to read the codes with some plugs under the dash if you’re into some DIY on your Liberty:

viewtopic.php?t=14372

OK. Went through that exercise and it gave me a 0.5 sec interval flashing CEL indicating no stored codes. Went through the process of clearing it anyway. Took it for a drive and low and behold it failed again. I stopped and connected the two black plugs together and got the same CEL flashing pattern so no new codes stored. To my way of thinking that makes the coil pack a prime suspect. Fortunately, over the weekend a mate who has exactly the same car will be here and we can swap the coil packs over and see what happens...

This car, since early 1998, has been as reliable as a clock. It gets serviced and has had only one new battery and a set of CV boots at the front. That's it.

[Mark_F]

How long since the fuel filter was last changed?
It could be clogged and finding it hard to maintain a constant supply.

It was changed less than a week ago.

[Subyroo]

How long since the fuel filter was last changed?
It could be clogged and finding it hard to maintain a constant supply.

It was changed less than a week ago.

Ok.

[El_Freddo]

This is a good one, every idea I come up with I then realise that it doesn’t fit the bill.

Even the thought of the coil pack being dead doesn’t fit - they usually don’t just kill the engine and go again. I had a coil pack that was dying and it didn’t perform well under load. No stalling though.

Swapping crank angle sensors or cam angle sensors could be beneficial. I had an occasion when the cam angle sensor slipped out and didn’t register the cam wheel marks and this killed the engine. It occurred because I forgot to put the retainer bolt in to hold the cam angle sensor. This did not throw a code.

One thought could be an issue with your ignitor- it’s a little black flat thing mounted in the centre of the fire wall. This could be on the way out and may be the cause.

I’d swap that with your mate’s one and see how it goes.

Fingers crossed this is the issue and a relatively easy fix.

Cheers

Bennie

[Mark_F]

Sorry it's taken so long to report back. I have had Land Rover "issues" to deal with...

This is a good one, every idea I come up with I then realise that it doesn’t fit the bill.

This is where I am at currently.

Even the thought of the coil pack being dead doesn’t fit - they usually don’t just kill the engine and go again. I had a coil pack that was dying and it didn’t perform well under load. No stalling though.

This is the sort of behaviour that I'd expect. What led me to the coil pack was that one of the high tension leads had slipped out of it's plastic clip and was overlapping it's neighbour. When it was clipped properly I went for a drive and for a couple of hundred kilometres it behaved perfectly. Then it started the stalling caper again. Replacing the coil pack with a known good one "appeared" to fix it but no. Again, after a hundred or so kilometres it stalled again.

Swapping crank angle sensors or cam angle sensors could be beneficial. I had an occasion when the cam angle sensor slipped out and didn’t register the cam wheel marks and this killed the engine. It occurred because I forgot to put the retainer bolt in to hold the cam angle sensor. This did not throw a code.

Unfortunately swapping the sensors with known good ones made not a jot of difference. And of course it took about 100 kilometres to show the fault again.

One thought could be an issue with your ignitor- it’s a little black flat thing mounted in the centre of the fire wall. This could be on the way out and may be the cause.

I’d swap that with your mate’s one and see how it goes.

Given the time between the instances of the fault becoming apparent I didn't have tome to swap that. When my mate comes to town again I'll swap that and see what the go is.
It's probably worth mentioning that at no stage was there a fault logged as determined by the method of connecting the plugs together under the dash.

Fingers crossed this is the issue and a relatively easy fix.

Indeed.

Cheers,
Mark F...

[Mark_F]

I know that it's been a long time....
Progress is being made albeit in very small baby steps...
Today it played the stopping game again. It's had a new coil pack and a new igniter and all seemed well for a while until today. The big difference today is that the check engine light came on. Hooray. Just when we were starting to call it fixed...
The stored codes are 22 (Knock Sensor or Circuit (Right Side on SVX)) and 23 (Air Flow Meter or Circuit (Exc. Justy)).

The big questions are :-
Will a bad knock sensor cause it to just stop ?
Will a below par or dead MAF cause it to just stop?
What effect will the combination have ?

In the Land Rover world a dead knock sensor will cause a check engine light and limp mode and a dead or dying MAF will cause it to use the default fuelling map. But of course that's in the LR world and I'm guessing the the Subaru world is in a completely different universe...

[Mark_F]

Well today I've decided to stuff it and change the knock sensor, crank angle sensor, the fuel pump relay and the fuel pump. I'm sick to death of chasing an intermittent problem.
When I get the bits I'll have a "replace-a-thon" and see what happens. If that doesn't fix it I give up and I'll sell the bloody thing.

[El_Freddo]

Agree, an intermittent issue like this is a painful one to get sorted and may have killed many a good car in its time.

Other than the crank angle sensor, I think that list of parts being replaced is sensible. The crank angle sensor is just a magnet with a copper coil around it. If the wire to the crank angle sensor is good there’s no reason for this sensor to flog out and die.

The dirty AFM will result in poor running and possibly engine stalling - but not when driving and the momentum of the vehicle can power the engine. Even an auto can turn an engine at speed, but you have a manual.

The other thing that could be the culprit is the ignition relay. I believe it’s a double relay built into one and the contacts may be dirty, get hot then not contact power as intended. Turning the ignition off and on again could be enough to re-establish a good electrical connection.

From memory it’s a brown relay in the same location as the fuel pump relay.

A bad knock sensor will most likely pull timing to protect the engine - if you know your car well it will feel like it’s down on power. And a dead oxygen sensor will cause your fuel economy to go bad and most likely not throw a code.

Let us know how you get on. Don’t sell a good car, you’ll thank yourself once you get it sorted. Be patient.

Cheers

Bennie

[El_Freddo]

Agreed, an intermittent issue like this is a painful one to get sorted and may have killed many a good car in its time.

Other than the crank angle sensor, I think that list of parts being replaced is sensible. The crank angle sensor is just a magnet with a copper coil around it. If the wire to the crank angle sensor is good there’s no reason for this sensor to flog out and die.

The dirty AFM will result in poor running and possibly engine stalling - but not when driving and the momentum of the vehicle can power the engine. Even an auto can turn an engine at speed, but you have a manual.

The other thing that could be the culprit is the ignition relay. I believe it’s a double relay built into one and the contacts may be dirty, get hot then not contact power as intended. Turning the ignition off and on again could be enough to re-establish a good electrical connection.

From memory it’s a brown relay in the same location as the fuel pump relay.

A bad knock sensor will most likely pull timing to protect the engine - if you know your car well it will feel like it’s down on power. And a dead oxygen sensor will cause your fuel economy to go bad and most likely not throw a code.

Let us know how you get on. Don’t sell a good car, you’ll thank yourself once you get it sorted. Be patient.

Cheers

Bennie

[Mark_F]

Well here's hoping after yesterdays replace-a-thon...
It has now had -

• New fuel filter
  New coil pack
  New igniter
  New crank angle sensor
  New knock sensor
  New MAF
  New fuel pump
  New fuel pump relay
  And a new ignition relay

It's just been for a test drive of about 30 km without dying at all but this isn't unusual. Part of the reason that this whole sorry episode has taken so long is that it's had periods where it'll behave perfectly for days at a time.
If it still has a problem then I'm at a total loss.
Thus far it seems OK...
Thanks everyone ever so much for all the help and advice. I now know a lot more about EJ22 Subarus than I ever thought I'd need to know... And just think I thought Discovery 2 Land Rovers could be malevolent...

Cheers,
Mark F...

[El_Freddo]

Other things to consider Mark is an issue with the ECU or the possibility of a wiring issue that’s intermittent - maybe a bump in the road or a certain vibration causes loss of connection in one or many sensors/power/earth circuits.

All body earth straps fitted? You should have one from the battery to the body, main battery earth wire to bellhousing at the starter motor, firewall to gearbox and possibly one or two from the intake manifold to the body.

If any of those are loose or showing signs of corrosion it may be part of the issue.

Also to note if moisture plays a part in some way.

I’m guessing this vehicle has a clean history in terms of crashes and repairs.

Cheers

Bennie