Ideal donor car

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:45 am

While pondering an EJ conversion, it dawned on me that there must be an "ideal" donor car for the job, not what is possible, but for example, what would be the best use of the parts available from just one car without cutting chassis rails etc, Forester two litre EJ with manual D/R g/box, so that I can use drive shafts, diff assy, wheels, brakes, steering column etc.

Is this feasible in just one model?

Am I being overly optimistic in thinking that I could do a drive-line update without having to make major modifications like fitting an EJ25 for example?

My old Brumby that I have on the farm (2 actually) which I am contemplating putting on the road would be a lot more enjoyable if it were for example a EJ20-EJ22 N/A manual D/R gearbox with matching rear diff, drive shafts, upgraded brakes, front suspension?, etc.

What model would give me the best "bang for my buck" if I were to buy just one donor car?

I would think that there would be others who would find this interesting before deciding on an engine/gearbox combo that could need extra parts to be sourced from different models.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:13 am

What are you using the car for? What are your objectives? Are you trying to avoid for e.g. opening up a gearbox and putting in a better low range gears, in which case you want to restrict yourself to later model cars with the 1.49 low range. Really need some parameters set out because the ideal donor varies greatly depending upon it.

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:46 pm

I guess I should explain myself better, I have a '91 Brumby and I am considering updating the drive-line to something a little more powerful, tuneable and driveable.

If Subaru released a new model Brumby next week, how would they build it? What combo of engine/gearbox, diff, suspension and brakes would FHI logically use?

In trying to do this I will need to update other areas such as brakes and suspension.

Let's say for example I envisage a EJ20-22 manual D/R gearbox, diff to suit and upgrade the suspension and brakes, is there a particular model that would achieve these goals better than any other, would a 98 Forester manual provide me with most of these parts, or would I be better off with an Impreza or another model to make the best use of the donor parts provided on that model?

While I am no stranger to opening up a gearbox or engine, I have no need for a specific gear ratio for low range.

It would be used both on the road and on my farm, so no "absolute" performance upgrades are required.

I really like the Subaru Brumby's but I don't enjoy the breathless engine, four speed gearbox, lack of ground clearance and crappy brakes for highway use.

I would consider lifting the car either by its suspension or body lift, let's say for arguments sake, I want a Brumby that is in most ways 130-140% better than standard, no turbos, no chassis cuts or transmission tunnel replacements, just better engine, gearbox, diff, suspension and brakes. Can I achieve this (or most of these mods) with one donor car or do I need to source parts from several different models?

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:44 pm

Have a look at my thread between the spam are some very useful ideas

showthread.php?t=15851

or find a 98 model forester and use that for your parts/doner car

TOONGA

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:08 pm

Thanks Toonga, will do..............but 51 pages whew!

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:42 pm

66 pages in total

(so far)

the first post has links to all the mods.

so you can slink past the spam

TOONGA

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:44 pm

Well I got to page 35 tonight, great read and build with some excellent ideas. More tomorrow!

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:23 am

then there is the various ways people add EJ model disc brake$. The quickest easiset cheapest has to be the L series RX disc brake rear even if you get it sent from the US.
Just a pad change in the front of my L made fronts so bitey - if only I could source same from US for Brumby ! RX disc rear on my Brumby made all the difference - between hardly worn, well serviced and adjusted drums and the bolt on RX disc rear brakes.
A proper rebore rebuild of EA81 with carby serviced or weber with an L Series 5 speed easy conversion would make a difference of about 20%

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:45 pm

Thanks for your help Steptoe, do you know which parts (for what I have in mind) of say a late 90's Forester that would be no use to me? Could I use the rear brakes? Front hubs, brakes and driveshafts?

Post by **TOONGA** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:23 pm

you would need the conversion kit that cannot be namesd on this site to be able to use the five stud setup on a brumby.

and 35 pages in wow

TOONGA

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:20 pm

Haha I had read the rest before lunch at work! Quite a read but got some good ideas from it.
Any idea (very roughly) what the cost of un-named suppliers kit is? Seems they don't list them on their un-named website either.

If overly expensive, it could make the difference between this conversion being viable or not.

Post by **TOONGA** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:40 am

Sadly the un named site has this on its home page

Brake Kits: Sold Out
Unfortunately we're no longer offering brake kits.
Posted 17 Jun 2013

I don't have the 5 stud conversion, I have 4x140 14' rims and disc brakes all round ("L" series rear) which works just as well.

getting a 4 stud rear disc brake setup for a brumby can cost from 400 - 700 dollars (going on recent prices)

I know people who have EJ motors in their cars with drum brake rears.

(Imprezas came standard in some models with drum brake rears)

The point is there is always a way to get things done.

look at the either a 3.7 or 3.9 ratio liberty 5 speed box (dual range or single range) with matching motor

or even the 5 speed "L" series part time box with a liberty box casing or adapter plate.

Have a look at Elfreddos, the Subi boys and Guys threads for more ideas

it is a fun road to explore and even more fun once it is done

TOONGA

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:28 am

So a Liberty 2.2 dual range with 3.7 or 3.9 diff would be one of the most economical donor cars and then do the RX rear disc conversion?
Entire 2.2 Liberty's can be had for a few hundred bucks but the condition of these cars will vary wildly, I think the lowest kilometre or best serviced car would be the best place to start.
I didn't know if they came in dual range or not, but if they do, they would be ideal for what I have in mind.
The carby concept is a good one for sheer simplicity, but our winters here can get mighty cold (-10C to -12C), as long as a carb with a working choke is used it wouldn't be a problem.
I think a Brumby with EJ22 (they fit between the chassis rails don't they?) D/R 5 speed manual, rear discs and a front brake upgrade would be a great little ute.
As I hinted at in an earlier post, "IF" Subaru were to release a 2013 Brumby, it would most likely be from the parts bin for the most part, 2.0-2.5 litre EFI engine, 5 or 6 speed manual dual range gearbox, four wheel discs (the govt would insist on ABS, airbags and ASC) and if they had more ground clearance than the MY models I think they would sell well in country areas.

For me, the simple improvements that this conversion would provide could be well worth the time, money and effort.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:22 pm

Servicing the brake system you currently have on your brumby will make a HUGE difference over what you're experiencing at the moment.

I'm talking master cylinder overhaul, soft lines replaced, new front discs and pads, new rear shoes at the very least and the front calipers serviced, rear slave cylinders replaced/serviced.

Going to that effort will see the brakes back up to factory standard rather than a 20-~30ish year old system that may not have been properly maintained.

Any SOHC EJ will fit into the brumby/MY's without rail modifications - it's just what you can find engine wise or what you want to use, some want the extra grunt of the EJ25 while others are happy with the EJ20. Most go with the EJ22 as they're easy to find at the right price in good condition.

The EJ gearbox will fit in with some gearbox cross member mods, modification to the gear linkages and the tail shaft. The rear diff will bolt straight in with the front mount swapped to the EJ rear diff. If going for an early EJ it should have male output stubs on the rear diff - this will fit directly onto your rear drive shafts. If it's a female diff you will need custom shafts.

It will be a neat package once you're done. Brake wise if you drive it for what it is you will be fine. I've got discs all round on the L series with 27's and braking isn't an issue with the EJ - just have to remember they're not sports brakes and it's not a sports car. Simple!

Cheers

Bennie

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:17 pm

Agreed, certainly no race car. That's one of the reasons I am not interested in turbo engines.
Did the EJ25 have head gasket issues, or was it the twin ohc engines only?
Early Gen 1 Outbacks are twin cam aren't they? When did they change to SOHC?
I agree about the brakes being 20+ years old, I just thought that it would be a worthwhile upgrade given the extra performance that an EJ20/22/25 would provide, I would prefer a rear disc conversion as a minimum.
An EJ22 would be fine for a Brumby I think, an EJ25 would be nice but it just depends on the age of the donor car and what price premium that would attract, also taking into account the price of the custom drive shafts. Do you know what year Subaru stopped the male output stubs on the diff?

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:16 pm

ajcmbrown wrote:Did the EJ25 have head gasket issues, or was it the twin ohc engines only?

Any EJ can have head gasket issues. Just that the EJ25 copped a bad wrap for a batch of dodgy head gaskets - once they're swapped out they pretty much behave the same way other EJ's do in terms of HG longevity.

ajcmbrown wrote:Early Gen 1 Outbacks are twin cam aren't they? When did they change to SOHC?

Sorry, dunno exactly, but it's somewhere in the late 90's.

ajcmbrown wrote:I agree about the brakes being 20+ years old, I just thought that it would be a worthwhile upgrade given the extra performance that an EJ20/22/25 would provide, I would prefer a rear disc conversion as a minimum.

Yeah it can be - but realistically the rear brakes do about 20% of the braking most of the time. Discs all round sounds good and they do go well - but that's when you drop them into a braking system where the old rear drums probably weren't doing anything, while the front end could do with a freshen up too.

A lot of this will be about cost as their availability is pretty limited these days, but you might get lucky with a set

Just keep hunting around, that's how I got my set for $30

ajcmbrown wrote:An EJ22 would be fine for a Brumby I think, an EJ25 would be nice but it just depends on the age of the donor car and what price premium that would attract, also taking into account the price of the custom drive shafts. Do you know what year Subaru stopped the male output stubs on the diff?

Why would the cost of custom drive shafts effect the price of the engine?? I'm confused. If you're going to AWD the drive train as well I can see you'll need a set of custom drive shafts with either engine - OR you could split the gearbox and swap the output stubs to the 23 spline units, they're interchangeable and held in by a circlip. The hardest part is splitting the gearbox and this deters a lot of people in the first place.

As for the age of the engine - the EJ22 could be older than the EJ25. I got my conversion in bits as I could afford it and a mate donated the wiring and ECU, so I had to find a matching intake with the required wiring and sensors that were compatible with the ECU - got that cheap too on a half price engine day at PAP, and it was low km!

Good times!

Donor is probably the easiest way to make sure you've got everything, but this could cost a little more in the beginning. I would look into doing the water pump, cam belt (kit), and possibly the headgaskets. I didn't do the HG's and have been lucky - I've frozen the block, boiled it several times and she's still holding out! Not looking forward to the day I get the sad news...
I also originally skipped doing the water pump as it checked out pretty good, but alas it was stuffed, leaking shaft seal and a tiny amount of play in the shaft that I didn't pick up on resulted in a weekend of stuffing around again.

Either way you'll love the EJ - doesn't really matter if it's an EJ25 or EJ22, both will boost the performance of your MY/L series beyond what you ever could imagine. I'm still stoked with mine almost 4 years down the track!

Just make sure you do the preventative maintenance work before it goes in and you'll be sweet!

Cheers

Bennie

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:35 pm

Hi Bennie, I should explain myself better, I didn't mean that the custom drive shafts would change the price of the engine, just another thing to take into account in the overall conversion, I thought for some reason that the earlier EJ22's gearbox didn't require custom drive shafts.

Either way, I have no problem opening up the gearbox it will be one of many, and I have a brumby gearbox laying around anyway so I could put the male 23 spline stubs in before any work on the car begins.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:55 pm

ajcmbrown wrote:Hi Bennie, I should explain myself better, I didn't mean that the custom drive shafts would change the price of the engine, just another thing to take into account in the overall conversion, I thought for some reason that the earlier EJ22's gearbox didn't require custom drive shafts.

Yeah thought as much, just wanted to clarify

ajcmbrown wrote:Either way, I have no problem opening up the gearbox it will be one of many, and I have a brumby gearbox laying around anyway so I could put the male 23 spline stubs in before any work on the car begins.

I'm not certain that an EA81 gearbox will do the trick with the output stub swaps, but give it a go as it may come out with the result you want. If it doesn't then source a set of EA82 output stubs.

The AWD gearboxes are 25 output spline count, the early FWD EJ gearboxes are 23 spline count

Cheers

Bennie