Ruby Scoo’s epic build, ten years and counting...

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vincentvega
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Post by vincentvega » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:29 pm

bugger mate. that sucks.

Is this the box you had rebuilt not so long ago?
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brumbyrunner wrote:And just to clarify the real 4WD thing, Subarus are an unreal 4WD.

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El_Freddo
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Post by El_Freddo » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:56 pm

Yep, that'd be the one VV!

I put it down to an old gearset that could've been flogged previously...

Going to see what I can come up with in the gear department ;)

Cheers

Bennie
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El_Freddo
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Post by El_Freddo » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:25 pm

Better pics of the munch gears. When turning the input shaft there are times it doesn't line up and that's clearly what the knocking sound was - it'd still be there if I were to run this in the vehicle still - not that you'd do it unless you really really had to!

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And the difference in the pinion shaft, lower being the locking centre diff's pinion shaft:

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I've ordered some seals from FROG - need to get some more sorted for the diff housing which requires some further research.

This evening I was able to get under Ruby Scoo to pressure wash the firewall and trans tunnel in prep to clean up some surface rust from the work done a few years ago. This way I'll be confident to head to the beach again and not go grey up top stressing about Ruby Scoo rusting out from under me.

I'm also hoping that this SG box will bring my speedo into line - it's a long shot but I'm going with the matched speedo drive from the SG box for the 4.111:1 diff. The drive spline is the same thread count but about 1.5mm wider in total compared to the EA drive thread.

Also for comparison the Gen1 Lib and 5spd EA 1st gear is 12.5mm wide excluding that funky thin gear that runs with the 1st gear cog. The SG 1st gear is 15.7mm wide as it is.

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And the "juicy" SG gearsets:

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Now to remember where I found all the torque specs for the various parts of the gearbox to get it all together. I'm also yet to find out if I need to mod the input shaft low range gear to make it fit. I remember from Apline Raven's and PeeJay's thread that they needed to machine down the gear a bit to fit the retainer clip.

Time will tell - the silly season is already getting in the way :(

Cheers

Bennie
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El_Freddo
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Post by El_Freddo » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:49 pm

Ok finally got some movement on the gearbox build. Yesterday I removed every moving piece from my front cases and swapped the pinion shaft over. On the left we have SG 2L foz gearsets on the L series AWD pinion shaft, on the right the turbo L series gearsets with the EJ style pinion shaft (held together for storage). In the centre is my OBX helical front LSD.

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All went too well there. I was quietly hoping that I wouldn't need to machine the L series low range synchro hub to fit to the SG's top shaft where the low range fits.

Turns out that it HAS to be done on all EJ boxes. This should sum up part of the issue:

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The EJ gearboxes have a shorter spline where the synchro hub sits. This doesn't allow the L series hub to mate neatly with the synchro ring, nor can you fit the retainer clip.

As per AP's thread here, I need to machine 4.25mm of thread to allow it to all come together like he's done here:

Image.

This is my current hold up on the gearbox. I've still got other things to do on Ruby Scoo in the mean time - and I'm yet to pull the selector rods from the donor gearbox as I'm going to use them to match to the gearsets.

I've still got to replace the rear main, crank and cam oil seals on the engine while the box is out.

I'm also going to clean up and seal some small surface rust areas that have appeared under the vehicle while the box is out.

Cheers

Bennie
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vincentvega
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Post by vincentvega » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:09 pm

so you are building your own box this time? what ratios will you end up with?
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brumbyrunner wrote:And just to clarify the real 4WD thing, Subarus are an unreal 4WD.

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tambox
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Post by tambox » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:27 pm

Make sure you match the selector forks to the gears.
Many a box has been done where the selector forks "fit" but are too big. This chews out the sleeve on the fork tips.
L serious, still.

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Post by NachaLuva » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:47 am

Thats all a bit over my head lol. Sounds like you've got it sorted ;)
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El_Freddo
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Post by El_Freddo » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:42 pm

vincentvega wrote:so you are building your own box this time? what ratios will you end up with?
Yeah DIY. Rick has done all the hard work, I'm just messing with drive ratios and replacing every oil seal except the diff's O rings as I'm not going to mess with its settings.
The ratios I'll have are the SG ratios of 3.454 1st; 2.08 2nd; 1.448 3rd; 1.088 4th and aiming for 0.87 5th but I'll talk more about that one shortly...
tambox wrote:Make sure you match the selector forks to the gears.
Many a box has been done where the selector forks "fit" but are too big. This chews out the sleeve on the fork tips.
Do I need to use the selector shafts from the donor box or can I/is it best to use the shafts from the current box with the selector forks from the donor box? They both look the same from what I can tell side by side.
NachaLuva wrote:Thats all a bit over my head lol. Sounds like you've got it sorted ;)
Getting there NL! It's a slow process, especially now that I'm back at work full time :( :)

So I've found out that this donor box has the 2.5L 5th ratio of 0.78 and the 2.0L low range of the 1.44:1 variety. So I'm confused as to how this has occurred as the box does not look like its been messed with at either end for these gears. The FSM says its one or the other, not both...

Anyway, a little pissed about the 5th ratio as I was hoping it would be the 0.871 as I thought it would be. I found out that I've got my desired 5th ratio from another gearset that I'm not going to use. So I've set about changing them over.

How anyone has changed them with the gearbox in the vehicle is beyond me. The top shaft is the easiest but still has about 120ft pound torque on it. The bottom shaft has more torque on it again. The other issue with the lower gear in the 5th combo is that it's pressed on. It wasn't easy to get it off held in the vice with nothing to interfere with our work.

My other issue is that the SG 5th has a larger woodruff key, something I found once the gear was off and then confirmed with a quick google search. I've looked into machining but the gear is obviously hardened. So we checked out the woodruff key for machining - not ideal but a way to do it. That too is hardened. The guy suggested that I very carefully shave the key with an angle grinder to make it fit... I'm not sure I'm ok with this. Might look into the cost of a new 5th ratio to see if it's a cost effective way to go as I can't see myself finding one second hand.

In the meantime I'm enjoying cruising around in Redback again, although I'm finding a few oil leaks!

Cheers

Bennie
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Post by tambox » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:10 pm

I've never changed the shafts, yet.

You should use the forks that match the gears.
The diameter of the slot the fork fingers sit in, varies between some gears, usually the 3/4 fork.
L serious, still.

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Post by Silverbullet » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:46 pm

El_Freddo wrote: My other issue is that the SG 5th has a larger woodruff key, something I found once the gear was off and then confirmed with a quick google search. I've looked into machining but the gear is obviously hardened. So we checked out the woodruff key for machining - not ideal but a way to do it. That too is hardened. The guy suggested that I very carefully shave the key with an angle grinder to make it fit... I'm not sure I'm ok with this. Might look into the cost of a new 5th ratio to see if it's a cost effective way to go as I can't see myself finding one second hand.

In the meantime I'm enjoying cruising around in Redback again, although I'm finding a few oil leaks!

Cheers

Bennie
Are you saying if the woodruff key was thinner/smaller it would be all sweet? Dang, if you were near me I could do that in about 5 minutes for free! Would there be any machine shops near you? You could do what you want on a surface grinder, it grinds thicknesses very accurate, perfectly flat and parallel. Doesn't matter if the material is hardened or not. Would be annoying if you needed to source a new gear just because of that...
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Post by El_Freddo » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:25 pm

Thanks Tambox! I'll work it out, might just swap the forks only just incase!

SB, the key needs to be shaved so that it ends up with a step in one or both sides so it fits the older EJ keyway on the gear. It also needs to be made shorter in height. Basically it needs to fit both the wider keyway on the shaft and the smaller keyway on the gear. It's too small to fit in their machines apparently - or they politely said "there's the door".

Cheers

Bennie
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Post by El_Freddo » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:40 am

Finally, some pics of what we've been talking about:

This is how my Synchro hub has been modified:

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This fits one beautifully. Only cost me $20 to have modified at a local machine shop.

The 5th gear ratio swap, not an easy job. Hand hydraulic press in use:

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Here's the issue, the woodruff key is a different size :evil:

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And here's a cool image of my gearbox laid out to show the centre diff and dog clutch arrangement:

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Not much has been done in the last few weeks. I've got a gut feeling that the next chance I'll have will be in March over the long weekend.

Cheers

Bennie
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Post by taza » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:57 am

Looks great mate. With my syncro hub we found that 4mm wasnt enough after taking that much off.. must of been to fit on this later model shaft. Non then less it went on without having to grind down the circlip holding it on so it was a firm fit.

Still going to keep using the OBX front LSD? Does it have stubs 25 spline? Or did you go 23 spine to suit L series shafts?

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Post by NachaLuva » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:47 am

Nice work. I know its frustrating its going to take so long but it will be worth it!

$20 to machine the synchro, sounds pretty good
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Post by pezimm » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:16 pm

El_Freddo wrote:Not much has been done in the last few weeks. I've got a gut feeling that the next chance I'll have will be in March over the long weekend.
Ohhh, I was hoping we were going to organise a trip for that long weekend?!?! Robe????
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Post by El_Freddo » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:18 pm

taza wrote:Looks great mate. With my syncro hub we found that 4mm wasnt enough after taking that much off.. must of been to fit on this later model shaft. Non then less it went on without having to grind down the circlip holding it on so it was a firm fit.
I think I asked for 4.2mm. From reading the FSM I think there are different thickness clips for this exact reason. I used one that was the tightest fit without an issue.
taza wrote:Still going to keep using the OBX front LSD? Does it have stubs 25 spline? Or did you go 23 spine to suit L series shafts?
Absolutely! It came 25 spline. The MPFI and MPFI turbo L's use the 25 spline shafts so off the shelf units are readily available. It works well and I would not build up a gearbox without a front LSD!
NachaLuva wrote:Nice work. I know its frustrating its going to take so long but it will be worth it!

$20 to machine the synchro, sounds pretty good
I'm getting more frustrated about it as time goes on. I'll have to make sure I slow down while doing the work to get it right the first time.

I was stoked with $20. Thought it would be more than that!
pezimm wrote:Ohhh, I was hoping we were going to organise a trip for that long weekend?!?! Robe????
If I could do a trip over the long weekend I'm not sure I'd want to do Robe - too much time wasted in driving there and back with little time for offroading.

A Wombat/Lerderderg or Cobaw or Mt Cole would be good though. Hopefully I'll have 3 days in a shed working on the my offroader!

Cheers

Bennie
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Post by El_Freddo » Wed May 27, 2015 9:15 pm

Holy crap, I can't believe it's been this long since an update! Apologies!

So the build has taken a turn. All was going well, I got the cases bolted together without issue until something told me to check that all gears could be selected and could be turned over.
All good until I tried reverse - it wouldn't select reverse properly. So I pulled it apart, everything checked out, put it back together and same issue. I did this again with the L series reverse slider gear and I still had the problem.

More in investigation and it seems that I need to use the L series slider gear and have the reverse drive gear shaved by about 1mm. I didn't go down this route.

New plan has been to swap everything into the SG cases. That's stalled on the account of lack of time. No happy with how it's progressed but I'm hoping to get sometime to play with it in the very near future, even though I've now got a Brumby engine to sort out too, and work load is about to dramatically increase :(

Can't wait to get Ruby Scoo going though! I need some bush/camping therapy once again! It's been too long since getting out there...

Cheers

Bennie
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Post by NachaLuva » Thu May 28, 2015 11:27 am

Thats a bugger! I think the SG box is the way to go though.
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Post by taza » Thu May 28, 2015 6:40 pm

Use a later SG gearsrt if you can get hold of one. Or a gen 4 outback box is the same.
SG 05-07
Gen 4 OB 04-08
The outback has a slightly shorter 5th than the SG one by 200rpm at 100kmhr.

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Post by El_Freddo » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:38 pm

taza wrote:Use a later SG gearsrt if you can get hold of one.
That's what I'm using. That's what caused all of my issues. There's a difference in the reverse slider gear and the reverse drive gear that makes this combination not fit in the phase 1 gearbox cases without major mods to gears that I wasn't happy to do.

So now I've turned my efforts to the SG phase 2 cases to fit my gears into. Last real piece of the puzzle was sorted this week - the change of the bearing on the input shaft with an interference bush to fit to the L series low range input shaft.

Now it's just down to time in the shed to sort out the diff and I have to add my low range oil feeders too. Then it's game on.

And painting - lots of painting to the underside of Ruby Scoo while the gearbox is out. I'm hoping that next weekend (20th) I'll get a couple of coats on in the red oxide, week after a couple in a black kill rust final coat stuff. Then the gearbox and everything can go back in :twisted:

Game plan is by the end of the school holidays Ruby Scoo will be rolling again. Oh, and I've got to pay the bloody rego too :evil:

Cheers

Bennie
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