Lifted Liberty and Handling

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:23 am

Is it stupid to expect semi decent handling from a gen 2 Liberty with a 2" lift?

With the standard suspension understeer is pretty obvious on entry (fine once on the throttle) and I'm worried it'll only be exaggerated with a lift. The plan at this stage is a 2" lift with King raised springs and new outback struts. Can a thicker rear sway bar, anti-lift (nice pun under the circumstances) and strut braces still be fitted or would this just be pointless and/or decrease offroad ability?

Any thoughts appreciated!

Outback bloke · Post by **Outback bloke** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:32 am

Heavier sway bars and anti-lift kits will restrict your wheel travel. Not good for 4wding.

The lifted car will stand handle fine on road for every day driving. It will limit your speeds when boy racer techniques are used though.

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:52 am

BYB-01 wrote:It will limit your speeds when boy racer techniques are used though.

Handling is generally a bit more refined than 'boy racer techniques'. In fact wankers driving lifted 4WD's outside of their (and the cars) ability are probably the worst offenders on any given Sunday when it comes to the twisties.

Most 'boy racers' cars don't handle either. Unless you count negotiating speed humps?

I am probably expecting too much though.

SUBYDAZZ · Post by **SUBYDAZZ** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:12 am

How fast are you entering corners to get understeer?

I realise this question is relative to cornering angle.

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:13 am

it will handle great as you will have new firmer springs and new shocks.

drive appropriately

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:13 am

SUBYDAZZ wrote:How fast are you entering corners to get understeer?

I realise this question is relative to cornering angle.

i was waiting for this question.

and familiar with the handling dynamics.

Entry speed to induce understeer is nothing too silly at all, I admit is it probably a product of the tyres and the old saggy suspension. Rack end has a little play and both front rear control arm bushes have seen better days so that isn't exactly going to help things. The rear sway bar is tiny though, looks like 10-11mm.

Use will be limited to trips up the beach and tracks that probably aren't much above what a 2WD could do hence the Q about rear sway bars/anti lift. It'll be a road car first and foremost (80% of it's duty) and will be my only car for at least the next 12mths.

If the 2" lift kills handling then I guess it's no big loss, can always remove it and stick with the outback struts/raised springs combo.

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:07 am

I am not a Liberty expert but this I can tell you .

When you raise a car like that with longer struts the control arms (back and front) will change geometry by pointing downwards more steeply at their outer ends . Just imagine for a minute that you could get a compass and scribe an arc around the control arms body mounting point . The further the arc drops below horizontal the further in the outer end becomes in the vertical plain . In layman's terms the greater angularity pulls the bottoms of the struts in and camber becomes more positive . It would pay you to check the lengths of the Forrester or Outback control arms to see if they are any longer .

If I was going to raise a Subaru I'd look at wheel diameters first because you get half the increase in wheel diameter as increased ride height without altering the std geometry (all else being equal) . It surprises me that body lift kits aren't made in 1 and 1.5 inches - you could do this and increase the wheel rolling diameters and not change the std geometry .

To have a car handle acceptably on hard surfaces the control arms need to be a little below the body mounting points at their outer ends so that you get a small amount of roll camber change as the suspension compresses on the outer side of the corners apex .
Most Subaru's tend to like larger than std rear anti roll bars to increase their roll stiffness and limit front roll camber/caster change . Most and particularly the earlier ones don't have anything like enough front caster or anti climb geometry built in .
Personally I could strangle Subaru for using that front lower "A" arm monstrosity because without fabricating things you can't make significant caster changes possible .
My suspension mentors tell me that its a bastard of an affair racing Rex's in production classes because to keep the geometry reasonable they virtually have to use REALLY firm spring and damper rates to all but lock the suspension up . If it doesn't move it doesn't change and that's the only way to make them work with std geometry and anti roll bars .

Just on the larger bars yes they won't do much for you on uneven terrain , an old off roaders trick used to be to disconnect the bars link on one side and it then does nothing .

Also a reality check . These Subaru's were never designed to be a super serious off roader and it is reflected in their road car based suspension . Getting them higher off the ground has merit in gaining ground clearance but if you do it with "longer legs" the high gained is at the expense of the suspensions droop travel . If its run over very uneven terrain ie typical diagonal wheel hang up situations you often aren't much better off , OK the guts may not bottom out but the suspended wheels can't drive/brake/steer .
A serious off roader has supple long travel suspension meaning significant upwards and downwards travel and nothing about that is anything remotely road car suspension territory .

Your call , if it was me I'd raise it an inch or so with springs and not use mega high spring rates . If you intend to "rally cross" it round off road it'll need serious dampers like Bilsteins just to keep the wheels on the deck . If any factory control arms were suitably longer to correct the camber change I'd do that too . I'd fit a slightly heavier rear bar and get used to pulling/refitting the link bolt on one side - take a jack along . Sensible larger diameter tyres would be next but don't forget to do something to correct the speedo error .

The L Series handbook tells you that they were designed to be an all road rather than an all terrain vehicle . The extra traction I believe in the 4wd was to get people out of trouble rather than into it .

.These cars can be a lot of fun as long as you don't expect them to go the sort of places say a Pinzgauer could .

Cheers A .

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:36 am

Awesome reply, has given me lots to think about and a few ideas to explore!

Possibly a stupid question but would adjustable strut tops help offset the camber change induced by the spring/strut lift?

Outback bloke · Post by **Outback bloke** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:41 am

If I was going to raise a Subaru I'd look at wheel diameters first because you get half the increase in wheel diameter as increased ride height without altering the std geometry (all else being equal) . It surprises me that body lift kits aren't made in 1 and 1.5 inches - you could do this and increase the wheel rolling diameters and not change the std geometry .

Subaru did just that with the Outback.
33mm lift on the cross members.
Different height brackets for the rear of the front swing arm and front of the trailing arm.
Longer struts.

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:29 pm

discopotato03 wrote:In layman's terms the greater angularity pulls the bottoms of the struts in and camber becomes more positive . It would pay you to check the lengths of the Forrester or Outback control arms to see if they are any longer .

not necessary. the offset in your lift kit strut tops compensates for this. I have a 4 1/2" lifted rear end with 2" body blocks and my alignment is neutral on the rear wheels.

If I was going to raise a Subaru I'd look at wheel diameters first because you get half the increase in wheel diameter as increased ride height without altering the std geometry (all else being equal) . It surprises me that body lift kits aren't made in 1 and 1.5 inches - you could do this and increase the wheel rolling diameters and not change the std geometry.

As brett said if you want a 1" lift just buy outback running gear and fit it to your gen2. the height of the lift makes no difference. if you fit a 2" kit all round you don't change the suspension geometry either

Your call, if it was me I'd raise it an inch or so with springs and not use mega high spring rates . If you intend to "rally cross" it round off road it'll need serious dampers like Bilsteins just to keep the wheels on the deck . If any factory control arms were suitably longer to correct the camber change I'd do that too . I'd fit a slightly heavier rear bar and get used to pulling/refitting the link bolt on one side - take a jack along . Sensible larger diameter tyres would be next but don't forget to do something to correct the speedo error.

Alot of us officiate at local rallies in QLD and hook around the dirt roads no problem with KYB shocks and King Springs. Seriously - the money your talking for a Bilstein rally setup is way more than the car is worth...

Don't worry about swaybars. I have the heavier airbag style bars in mine and they stay connected all the time. I am sure they limit my travel slightly, but i have bugger all anyway. He is talking about mild offroad and beach work, swaybar disconnects are far from required!

You don't need longer control arms. The outback control arms are the same length as liberty. They just use a different mounting bracket at teh front of the arm.. i recommend using this part as it compensates for any extra lift you have in your struts and moves the rear wheel back about 8mm

speedo error - yes it will be out. compare to a GPS and drive appropriately from then on. a 27" tyre on a lib is roughly 10% slow. So 90 on the dial in the 100 zones... its not hard.

Seriously we have been doing this lifted liberty thing for years now. It works and they handle fine. If you want something that handles like a sportscar dont buy a lifted subaru!

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:34 pm

...and that answers a few more questions that the search function couldn't.

cheers VV!

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:52 pm

vincentvega wrote:If you want something that handles like a sportscar dont buy a lifted subaru!

Obviously there are going to be compromises but is there really anything wrong with trying to get something set up properly and handling as well as it possibly can for what it is?

I'm not saying the tried and true methods of liberty lifting is flawed in any way (really appreciate all the knowledge shared) but I'd be a fool to just race off and fit the first kit/combination I see because an internet forum tells me so.

Naturally there are going to be questions.

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:02 pm

mate the more research you do the better. And no - there is nothing wrong with getting the best handling out of the car that you can.

All I am saying is horses for courses, you dont build a lifted car for its handling - you build it for its offroad ability.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:44 pm

I have lifted Liberty myself, running on outback spec tyres and suspensions overall lift was 2 inches and new springs are on its way to be installed (waiting) I do have noticed more body roll on corners and I don't feel comfortable going around corners fast so good excuse!..

Are Outback's sway bar thicker than Liberty's?

Speedo - It was incorrect by roughly 5-7kmh with outback spec tyres but fixed the problem by buying JayCar's speedo corrector and been happy with it ever since.
Cheers
AP

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:00 pm

By Bilstein dampers I mean direct replacment kind if available , if not I'd be looking at Koni . With replacement Bilsteins generally the damper valving is set to compensate for soft OEM spring rates .

If Outback bits fit and achieve reasonable geometry then I'd use those bits as a matching set . Factory engineering is hard to beat cost wise .

Cheers A .

SUBYDAZZ · Post by **SUBYDAZZ** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:41 pm

3 points here:

a)

discopotato03 wrote:...These cars can be a lot of fun as long as you don't expect them to go the sort of places say a Pinzgauer could ...

What on earth is a Pinzgauer?

b) Will a front (or front and rear) strut brace make handling / cornering better in a lifted Lib?

c) When someone comes up with a way to use a body lift and retain the stock air suspension in Liberties (ie lift at base of the rear strut so you can actually put bigger tyres on) this is a pretty good set up. The Airbags are variable damping and I find they are pretty good at stiffening when they need to be (after first initial shock to them).

Thoughts?

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:44 am

Pinzgauer was originally an Austrian military small/medium lightweight six wheel drive truck , there are a few out here but not many . The four wheel drive version is known as a Haflinger .
Both were famous for being light and from memory are based around a skeletal tubular frame making space for long travel suspension . They are hardly a pretty thing and probably have no creature comfort at all - typical 60's mill spec mechanical mule . I believe Pinzgauer is the name for an Austrian horse so er um Brumby ?

Much more of a purpose built all terrain vehicle than most things .

Search Daimler Steyer Putch .

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:55 am

b) Will a front (or front and rear) strut brace make handling / cornering better in a lifted Lib?

probably but you are losing body flex which accounts significantly to your ability to keep the wheels on the ground when offroad

c) When someone comes up with a way to use a body lift and retain the stock air suspension in Liberties (ie lift at base of the rear strut so you can actually put bigger tyres on) this is a pretty good set up. The Airbags are variable damping and I find they are pretty good at stiffening when they need to be (after first initial shock to them).

rear struts: slot the holes and have plates welded on locating the new bolt positions. front should clear 27's already. fit a standard 2" lift with extended air lines - hey presto you have an awesome machine

Thoughts?

lift your bloody car already. coffs is coming up...

SUBYDAZZ · Post by **SUBYDAZZ** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:10 am

vincentvega wrote:probably but you are losing body flex which accounts significantly to your ability to keep the wheels on the ground when offroad

I've seen how much body flex mine has offroad, and I don't think it's a good thing. Don't open the tailgate when you are parked on a nasty angle - it might not shut

vincentvega wrote: rear struts: slot the holes and have plates welded on locating the new bolt positions.

As in the holes in the bottom of the strut? How much more clearance under the airbag base can you get?

vincentvega wrote: lift your bloody car already.

I knew that was coming, unfortunately my gearbox has more dire needs. I actually have to drive my Impreza sometimes now!

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:56 am

yeah the 2 holes at the bottom of the strut. have a look at them i reckon you could get an inch more cleearance easy which should let you fit 27s

oogah dave did this to his lib sedan. he did it dodgy as though. I reckon if you had it done well it wouldnt give you any trouble at all.

seriously dazz dont buy another set of tyres... next time your up for tyres fit some nice 26 or 27" tyres to those rims, and give the car a 2" lift up in the world. Your obsession with airbags would work really well with a 2" lift i reckon