Starting this string with a request for the moderators - can we possibly have a seperate suspension section please .
That said , I really like Sport Bilstein dampers and much prefer not to use anything else . I enquired and because of the age of the L series nothing direct fit is available from Bilstein . I am looking into which ones could be fitted to the rear because the L series is a common coil over damper style strut . The front is not so easy because the strut foot clamps around the damper body and the damper is a bit small in diametre anyway .
I have read that its possible to graft Impreza front struts into the L series and if thats the case Bilstein inserts would be a snap to obtain . What I need to know is how much of a direct fit the Impreza strut foot is ie at the ball joint/steering arm and what about the CV joint and hub offset ?
If doable it would lock me into the 5 by 100mm stud pattern and Impreza brakes (damn !) and would probably need those five stud conversion rear hubs as well .
None of this promises to be cheap but I think enhancing performance is pointless without the suspension and brakes to go with it .
Any feed back greatly appreciated , thanks Adrian .
Foot note : Have no intention of turning this car into a budget Landcruiser so the ride hight will remain as Subaru built it .
Suspension Upgrades for L Series (RX-T) .
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discopotato03
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waggaclint
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no comment...discopotato03 wrote: Foot note : Have no intention of turning this car into a budget Landcruiser so the ride hight will remain as Subaru built it .
alex
my07 Outback
my13 Hyundai i45(shhhh)
my02 Gen3 Liberty limited ed.
previously
L-series wagon, LSD, EJ20turbo, 29in tyres, 'wanky wagon'
2000 gen3 outback, lifted, otherwise stock.
my13 Hyundai i45(shhhh)
my02 Gen3 Liberty limited ed.
previously
L-series wagon, LSD, EJ20turbo, 29in tyres, 'wanky wagon'
2000 gen3 outback, lifted, otherwise stock.
Obtaining a set of Bilstein for the rear is not that difficult and any good suspension shop should be able to assist you with this (I only know this cause last year I had a suspension store look at mine). That being said any good suspension shop should be able to assist you to find the right set up your after as there is fully adjustable TEIN stuff and other gear that will fit without to much drama, which is what I was told. It all depends on what your desired outcome is and how much you want to spend. If you intension was to keep it as Subaru built it then I suggest you look at King struts and KYB springs (or some other threads about struts/springs options).
Hope that this helps.
Hope that this helps.
Toyota 105 Series LandCruiser (that nobody on here wants to really hear about).
RX Touring Wagon - fitted out for 4WDing (currently collecting dust).
RX Project - will be road only at this stage (and currently taking way to long to finish).
RX Touring Wagon - fitted out for 4WDing (currently collecting dust).
RX Project - will be road only at this stage (and currently taking way to long to finish).
craig.......king springs and kyb struts...i think ur goin a tad crazy these days..
no more subarus
[/SIZE] [/color][/B][/color][/SIZE][/color]http://community.webshots.com/user/D3V1L9
[/SIZE] [/color][/B][/color][/SIZE][/color]http://community.webshots.com/user/D3V1L9
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discopotato03
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If you can please tell me which Bilstein rear you used I'd appreciate it .
The reason I'm so one eyed with Bilstein is the design of the valve body/shim stack . Being a true monotube means they have (in some tube sizes) the ability to run a much more sophisticated valve assembly than Japanese aftermarket ie Tein . I am not criticising anyone who likes other gear just quantifying my preferences .
I live the results of someone in Sydney who developed re valved Bilsteins and custom springs/anti roll bars for import Skylines with Whiteline and the results are exceptional from a handling point of view . My RX-T would need greater ride height and be a bit more compliant than the R33 to be of any use off road .
BTW the comment about budget Landcruiser was not intended to be a cheap shot at anyone , I just don't want it higher than std (will spend 97% of its time on road) and not use huge heavy wheels because unsprung mass can be a big problem . With 5 x 100 pcd studs a light 15" by 5.5 or 6 wheel for 205 tyres is a big and wide as I would ever go on a road car of its size and weight . This + AWD would be nice I reckon .
Cheers A .
Researching Crossbred Performance ATM .
The reason I'm so one eyed with Bilstein is the design of the valve body/shim stack . Being a true monotube means they have (in some tube sizes) the ability to run a much more sophisticated valve assembly than Japanese aftermarket ie Tein . I am not criticising anyone who likes other gear just quantifying my preferences .
I live the results of someone in Sydney who developed re valved Bilsteins and custom springs/anti roll bars for import Skylines with Whiteline and the results are exceptional from a handling point of view . My RX-T would need greater ride height and be a bit more compliant than the R33 to be of any use off road .
BTW the comment about budget Landcruiser was not intended to be a cheap shot at anyone , I just don't want it higher than std (will spend 97% of its time on road) and not use huge heavy wheels because unsprung mass can be a big problem . With 5 x 100 pcd studs a light 15" by 5.5 or 6 wheel for 205 tyres is a big and wide as I would ever go on a road car of its size and weight . This + AWD would be nice I reckon .
Cheers A .
Researching Crossbred Performance ATM .
You will have to leave it with me as the parts are at home (hence the incorrect strut/spring info – I log on at work and often squeeze board time in, so posts are not drafted and/or re-read).
I think from memery though it’s a standard strut that has had an adjustable collar place on them. The are going in the car on the weekend (should I get the time) so if you would like a pic of them (with the KYB’s on) before they go in then let me know today and I will e-mail you a pic.
The reason I was suggested not to say with Bilstein is that they are a high pressure gas shock and there are potentially better options available on the market. The reason mine are going in is that they are working just fine, if/when they fail I will see what options I have… my sense is that I will return to the King/KYB combo. Note that this combo does work exceptionally well and many board members have this set up for may years in all kinds of application from drack racing to serious 4WDing and there is a reason why we continue to return to this set up.
As for the wheels - I run 15” and have found that a 195/50/15 is a better option then the 205/50/15. Why? For one the 195 can be a little easier to find (not by much though) and the 195 does not balloon out off the rim as much as the 205.
The above is obviously my 2c, I am not attempting to talk you out of anything just hopefully offering you options so you can make an informed decisions.
I think from memery though it’s a standard strut that has had an adjustable collar place on them. The are going in the car on the weekend (should I get the time) so if you would like a pic of them (with the KYB’s on) before they go in then let me know today and I will e-mail you a pic.
The reason I was suggested not to say with Bilstein is that they are a high pressure gas shock and there are potentially better options available on the market. The reason mine are going in is that they are working just fine, if/when they fail I will see what options I have… my sense is that I will return to the King/KYB combo. Note that this combo does work exceptionally well and many board members have this set up for may years in all kinds of application from drack racing to serious 4WDing and there is a reason why we continue to return to this set up.
As for the wheels - I run 15” and have found that a 195/50/15 is a better option then the 205/50/15. Why? For one the 195 can be a little easier to find (not by much though) and the 195 does not balloon out off the rim as much as the 205.
The above is obviously my 2c, I am not attempting to talk you out of anything just hopefully offering you options so you can make an informed decisions.
Toyota 105 Series LandCruiser (that nobody on here wants to really hear about).
RX Touring Wagon - fitted out for 4WDing (currently collecting dust).
RX Project - will be road only at this stage (and currently taking way to long to finish).
RX Touring Wagon - fitted out for 4WDing (currently collecting dust).
RX Project - will be road only at this stage (and currently taking way to long to finish).
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discopotato03
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I don't really have a problem with the Bilstein dampers being gas pressurised because as I'm sure you know its there to reduce the airation of the fluid and loss of damping action with hard use . What most people find a little "hard" with some Bilstein dampers is the low piston speed damping but with higher piston speeds they don't necessarily feel as stiff as many would think . At least with Bilsten they can be altered if your serious about it .
From what I think I've learnt from Crossbred Performance articles series 1 Liberty and early Impreza front struts go into the L series once the ball joint and tie rod end issues are solved , obtaining Bilstein cartridges to suit either of those two bolt style hub assemblies should be easy . I'm not certain but it sounds like the 25 spline RX Turbo outer CV joints are similar or same as Liberty/Impreza so it may even be feasible to use the existing 4 stud hub and disk with a basic adapter to mount the std cable/hydraulic disc caliper in the short term . I need better suspension before better brakes and staggering conversion costs can't hurt .
Anyhow the back is the issue strut wise , I am also going to see ifs its possible to bolt in the multilink rear suspension from an early Impreza/Liberty/Forrester . This is going to depend on how similar L series body mounts are to the later cars and if any of the links mount to the body rather than the cross member . If it falls in its a potentially cheap way of getting 2nd hand 5 stud hubs and everything else involved with (IMO) far more sophisticated rear suspension - and choise of Bilsteins too .
Gareth seems to be right up with much of this so will be contacting him .
More later cheers A .
From what I think I've learnt from Crossbred Performance articles series 1 Liberty and early Impreza front struts go into the L series once the ball joint and tie rod end issues are solved , obtaining Bilstein cartridges to suit either of those two bolt style hub assemblies should be easy . I'm not certain but it sounds like the 25 spline RX Turbo outer CV joints are similar or same as Liberty/Impreza so it may even be feasible to use the existing 4 stud hub and disk with a basic adapter to mount the std cable/hydraulic disc caliper in the short term . I need better suspension before better brakes and staggering conversion costs can't hurt .
Anyhow the back is the issue strut wise , I am also going to see ifs its possible to bolt in the multilink rear suspension from an early Impreza/Liberty/Forrester . This is going to depend on how similar L series body mounts are to the later cars and if any of the links mount to the body rather than the cross member . If it falls in its a potentially cheap way of getting 2nd hand 5 stud hubs and everything else involved with (IMO) far more sophisticated rear suspension - and choise of Bilsteins too .
Gareth seems to be right up with much of this so will be contacting him .
More later cheers A .
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discopotato03
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Ok the kit path development for the L series starts here . It will be used with Crossbred Performances 5 stud hub conversion kit and early Aus spec Liberty front struts .
So far I have the Liberty front struts because its hubs and brakes convert the std car to 5 stud and more effective brakes . The uprights have been removed from the hydraulic Liberty shock absorber unit and the next stage is to remove the std tube nut and piston/rod/valve assembly . All the lengths need to be measured so that a dimensionally suitable Sport Bilstein cartridge can be fitted inside once a tubular section lock nut adapter is welded to the top of the tube to retain the insert . Also a threaded sleeve will be fitted to the strut tube to mount the threaded lower spring seat and a lock nut . This is basically what you'd call a coilover conversion to the Liberty strut .
For those who may not know the Leonies front springs are smaller diametre coils compared to Libertys and of lower rate to support the lighter car . I intend to use smaller diametre coils so that camber/caster adjustable strut tops can be used and the coils leave enough room in the strut tower for reasonable adjustment . This assumes I can find strut tops using conventional bearings - no sphericals .
I don't think the rear will be terribly difficult becase std they use small diametre coils and something in a Bilstein shock absorber should be available and use the circlip in machined groove system to mount the lower spring seat . I can't see any benefit of altering the rear geomety as far as static negative camber goes because being trailing arm suspension camber would be fixed I suppose . My aim will be to increase the roll stiffness without making the ride qualities unacceptable and so try to keep the rear wheels vertical to the tarmack . I want the front geometry to change by having neutral camber (0) but increasing the positive caster which increases dynamic camber when the steering is moved away from centre . I have power steer so steering loads should not be an issue . Toe angles I don't know yet because initially this car will be mostly front wheel drive and later AWD .
BTW if anyone has the factory Subaru Manuals can you check if they cover std spring dimensions and rates , we will measure anyway but factory figures are usually a little more accurate .
This conversion will take time partly because of work commitments and some things just take time . It won't be cheap at somewhere between 2-3G but this is what it takes to make a good thing much better .
More as comes to hand , cheers Adrian .
So far I have the Liberty front struts because its hubs and brakes convert the std car to 5 stud and more effective brakes . The uprights have been removed from the hydraulic Liberty shock absorber unit and the next stage is to remove the std tube nut and piston/rod/valve assembly . All the lengths need to be measured so that a dimensionally suitable Sport Bilstein cartridge can be fitted inside once a tubular section lock nut adapter is welded to the top of the tube to retain the insert . Also a threaded sleeve will be fitted to the strut tube to mount the threaded lower spring seat and a lock nut . This is basically what you'd call a coilover conversion to the Liberty strut .
For those who may not know the Leonies front springs are smaller diametre coils compared to Libertys and of lower rate to support the lighter car . I intend to use smaller diametre coils so that camber/caster adjustable strut tops can be used and the coils leave enough room in the strut tower for reasonable adjustment . This assumes I can find strut tops using conventional bearings - no sphericals .
I don't think the rear will be terribly difficult becase std they use small diametre coils and something in a Bilstein shock absorber should be available and use the circlip in machined groove system to mount the lower spring seat . I can't see any benefit of altering the rear geomety as far as static negative camber goes because being trailing arm suspension camber would be fixed I suppose . My aim will be to increase the roll stiffness without making the ride qualities unacceptable and so try to keep the rear wheels vertical to the tarmack . I want the front geometry to change by having neutral camber (0) but increasing the positive caster which increases dynamic camber when the steering is moved away from centre . I have power steer so steering loads should not be an issue . Toe angles I don't know yet because initially this car will be mostly front wheel drive and later AWD .
BTW if anyone has the factory Subaru Manuals can you check if they cover std spring dimensions and rates , we will measure anyway but factory figures are usually a little more accurate .
This conversion will take time partly because of work commitments and some things just take time . It won't be cheap at somewhere between 2-3G but this is what it takes to make a good thing much better .
More as comes to hand , cheers Adrian .
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discopotato03
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The plan may be simplified at the front to try to avoid the cost of coilover conversion if its not absolutely necessary . I'm told that MY94-99 Impreza/WRX have the damper section of the strut very similar to the early Liberty but with possibly a fractionally lower fixed spring seat . So it sounds like the Impreza std spring and damper "leg" should put the ride height in an L series about the same as std . I'm more concerned about it being a little too high than too low because its always easier to raise it a little than drop it a little . With a higher effective spring rate I think it'll be a little less likely to bottom out and hit things than it is ATM .
Rear . Am also told that 2wd trailing arms have the rear strut mount lower on the arm than 4WD ones , so with the same deal reproduced on the 4WD ones its possible to have the std rear strut travel but with ~ 2" lower rear ride height . Doing this fits in with the easier to raise than lower thing so with again higher rate springs the back may be able to come down a fraction to level the car . Mine is a sedan so it won't need the load carying ability of a wagon nor the ride hight they need to have so they can get away with ride friendly springs that close up when loaded up . I did find some pics at I think USMB of XT6 KYB rear dampers with a coilover conversion and would post them here if I knew how .
Many thaks to Crossbred Performance for info and parts , cheers Adrian DP03 .
Rear . Am also told that 2wd trailing arms have the rear strut mount lower on the arm than 4WD ones , so with the same deal reproduced on the 4WD ones its possible to have the std rear strut travel but with ~ 2" lower rear ride height . Doing this fits in with the easier to raise than lower thing so with again higher rate springs the back may be able to come down a fraction to level the car . Mine is a sedan so it won't need the load carying ability of a wagon nor the ride hight they need to have so they can get away with ride friendly springs that close up when loaded up . I did find some pics at I think USMB of XT6 KYB rear dampers with a coilover conversion and would post them here if I knew how .
Many thaks to Crossbred Performance for info and parts , cheers Adrian DP03 .
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Bratgeebah
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discopotato03
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The current plan is for my suspension brain surgeon to put RX on the hoist this weekend to measure up the spring and anti roll bar wire diametres to get a base line to start from . Then it gets taken for the wobble test to see which areas need to be altered to make it handle properly .
My opinion is that these cars (this ones nearly 21 yrs old and stock as a rock) don't ride too badly and point ok if driven sedately . It alters dramatically when pushed into corners , IMO the bars don't have enough roll stiffness so I expect big things when they are changed . Off the top of my head in rough figures my cars bars measure 19 and 16 mm front and back .
From at least one web site the L series is supposed to use the same style bar D link bush as early Liberty's so we'll find out soon enough . They will of course be changed to urethane in one of the softer grades .
Something will definately have to be done with the caster rod bushes as they are way too soft and move too much causing eratic steering when pushed . Being a compression rod (pointing back from the lower control arms) it means altering the geometry to have much more positive caster should not be too difficult . What can be a problem is pushing the strut forward at the foot may do undesirable things to front driveshaft angles so again have to try and see . Its always preferable to make camber and caster changes from the top of a Macpherson strut though in this case that literally hinges around availability of suitable adjustable strut tops and how much the strut/spring can be laid back without hitting anything .
Will post more as info comes to hand , cheers A .
My opinion is that these cars (this ones nearly 21 yrs old and stock as a rock) don't ride too badly and point ok if driven sedately . It alters dramatically when pushed into corners , IMO the bars don't have enough roll stiffness so I expect big things when they are changed . Off the top of my head in rough figures my cars bars measure 19 and 16 mm front and back .
From at least one web site the L series is supposed to use the same style bar D link bush as early Liberty's so we'll find out soon enough . They will of course be changed to urethane in one of the softer grades .
Something will definately have to be done with the caster rod bushes as they are way too soft and move too much causing eratic steering when pushed . Being a compression rod (pointing back from the lower control arms) it means altering the geometry to have much more positive caster should not be too difficult . What can be a problem is pushing the strut forward at the foot may do undesirable things to front driveshaft angles so again have to try and see . Its always preferable to make camber and caster changes from the top of a Macpherson strut though in this case that literally hinges around availability of suitable adjustable strut tops and how much the strut/spring can be laid back without hitting anything .
Will post more as info comes to hand , cheers A .