Lifted Liberty and Handling

[SUBYDAZZ]

I love my obsession. I feel we may be getting a little OT though

[discopotato03]

I think the issue here is going to be striking the balance between supple long travel suspension and that which controls body roll and geometry change .
I don't think its possible to have it both ways because they are at opposites to each other .

If your going to walk it over serious undulations its going to work the body hard because it will flex in an attemp to keep its feet on the ground with limited suspension travel . The trouble is that Subaru being road car suspension based has limited suspension travel and its geometry is designed around limited travel . You can lift it up as much as you like to have more clearence but you will also get greater geometry change through increasing its travel - assuming you use long travel dampers and springs to cope with them .

There are other ways to skin the cat , you could lift it a little and fit skid plates underneath to minimise damage if it hits anything . Can use limited slip differentials so it can drag itself off anything it bottoms out on .

At lot of how successful off roading is often comes down to how the individual approaches it . Some people don't mind stopping when it get too rough and walking the last bit . Some don't mind having a shovel and pick and improving the trail where necessary .

I think you have to decide on which speciality you want and go with it , just remember if its way up high with heavy wheels and falls over through some violent evasive action on a public road its you who changed things away from the ADR compliant production car . Given a chance the regulating bodies will eat you and no amount of telling the beak you wanted to blast up Ocean Beach on Fraser is going to wash with them . When you make any significant change to a road vehicles dynamics you have to accept the fallout if it all goes pear shaped .

A .

[vincentvega]

Mate have you ever been offroad in a lifted subaru?

Wheel travel is only one part of the equation. Ground clearance, traction aids (limo diffs etc), better tyres etc all come into it aswell and you can do all this to a lifted subaru running standard suspension with great success.

Yes we fly wheels more often than something with more wheel travel, but who cares? If you want a rock crawler you dont buy a subaru do you

When you make any significant change to a road vehicles dynamics you have to accept the fallout if it all goes pear shaped

that applies to any car mate, not just a "road vehicle".

lifting a "real" 4x4's is no differnt. modifying a bike is no different.

[discopotato03]

Not Subarus , no . Over the years in old Landy's/2 door classic Rangies/one Studebaker/RL and M series Bedfords/ex RAAF Thornycrofts/Isuzus/Hinos/Army prototype Leyland Mastiff/FT2000 Man .
Actually throw in FJ and HJ Cruisers and a late Hilux as well . Yer haven't lived till you've done full power full lock 6 wheel drifts on the sand with a 13 tonne truck .

By road vehicle I mean anything wearing number plates that ventures onto public roads .

[vincentvega]

you lucky bugger. i would love to get a drive in one of those crazy army rigs!

[discopotato03]

That Mastiff was one of only two ever built in that format , unlike the British army version it rode on 6 18R 22.5 super singles tyres which are more like small earth moving vehicle tyres than large truck tyres .
Its main gearbox was a 6 spd Turner aluminium cased item that also never reached production . The vehicle was an army contract prototype that was beaten by the 6WD Mack in current use , the Leyland made the weight spec which the Mack didn't (by 2.5 tonnes) but it survived the drop test in better condition . Its original cab was a two piece affair with the parting line below the windscreen , the top section (with Rommel hatch) was made removable so it could fit in Hercules transports .
By the Jesus that thing had some wheel travel , if it was parked with the drs side front wheel at full droop you literally had to run up the side of the wheel to get at the lowest step ! It was amazing where it could go in its lowest gears with the three cross axle diff locks and the rear power divider (inter axle) diff lock in . It was quite tall and generally its dimensions were more of a problem than its ability to climb over most things .

The Thornycroft was a 59 build Nubian known as a crash manual Mk1 , real beast and can still hear the scream of the straight 8 Roller it had . Dog box and "armstrong" power steering , no one was ever game to drive it off road with their hands inside the wheels spokes .

Cheers .

[brumbyrunner]

I have been reading discopotato's posts about lifted Libertys and the change in geometry and how bad it was going to handle (wtf?) and now I find he hasn't even been offroad in one.
Have you ever even driven a lifted Liberty or any Subie for that matter?
Hahahahah
All that well written stuff sounded good though aye?
BTW, I own half a dozen Landcruisers, one with 6" of lift and 37" tyres and I am still impressed where a jacked Subaru will go with it's "road car suspension".

[Suby Wan Kenobi]

i was waiting for this question. and familiar with the handling dynamics.

Entry speed to induce understeer is nothing too silly at all, I admit is it probably a product of the tyres and the old saggy suspension. Rack end has a little play and both front rear control arm bushes have seen better days so that isn't exactly going to help things. The rear sway bar is tiny though, looks like 10-11mm.

Use will be limited to trips up the beach and tracks that probably aren't much above what a 2WD could do hence the Q about rear sway bars/anti lift. It'll be a road car first and foremost (80% of it's duty) and will be my only car for at least the next 12mths.

If the 2" lift kills handling then I guess it's no big loss, can always remove it and stick with the outback struts/raised springs combo.

With the standard sway bars in place with a 2in lift you will not notice much at all in detriment to handling. Overall if you are wanting to lift the Liberty and you are willing to accept the car has not had its handling capabilities increased you wont have any issues in day to day driving. I have had my rear sway bar removed since i lifted my Liberty and only notice it isnt there when towing my van, it is still quick (turbo) and still handles as good as it did when unlifted but i dont drive it like some of the idiots out there in Coights.


If you are going for a more road bias setup then the lift and some new springs will go along way in retaining its original drivability on the road and also give you a dececnt advantage in offroad situations.

[discopotato03]

brumbyrunner its not necessary to do so . Earlier series Liberty's don't exactly have what you'd call advanced suspension - depends what you think of McPherson front and Chapman rear struts .

It doesn't matter how you go about raising the body height , basically the sprung mass of the vehicle is higher with no increase in track width so centres of gravity and roll centres get progressively worse the higher you go . The more top heavy it becomes the more likely it is to "fall over" . The problem is that the sudden change in direction of the centre of mass is what tosses a vehicle on its side .

Your Cruisers unless Blunderers or later goon edition wagons have live axles and how they articulate is totally different . When you get the chance measure the ride high and track width of a std Landcruiser and a std Liberty and compare the differences . Worlds apart .

[brumbyrunner]

I guess this is the problem with talking theory as opposed to real world experience. The question that was originally asked, and what you have been trying to answer, refers to the affect to handling that a 2" lift kit would have on a Liberty. To advise that lifting a vehicle detracts from it's handling is missleading and oversimplifying. It's like saying that a bigger vehicle will use more fuel than a smaller one or a ratio change will make you go faster. Not always true. I know countless 4wd owners who have raised their vehicles and now prefer the handling.
The point is a 2" lifted Liberty will still outhandle most stock 4wds on the road and I know this because I've driven most of them. To start worrying about the dangers of your Liberty "falling over" from it's great height is kinda silly when you compare it to other road users. If you could get a drive or ride in one you will see what I mean.
FYI, the Outback has a 1500mm track which is some 60mm more than a Cruiser ute and 100mm more than a 40 series.

[discopotato03]

Actually I sold myself short , one of the members here in Sydney built and sold a 1st gen RS replica and it had a lift kit and I think larger diametre wheels . I went for an on road demo in that because it was for sale at the time .

Add that to the long list of cars trucks and locomotives .

A .

[El_Freddo]

Wow, what an interesting read about a 2 inch lift kit in a liberty and everything else.

I don't mean to be starting another fight in here but discopotato, i don't think lifting a liberty 2 inches will cause any handling or suspension problems. I realise that you (from reading your threads on here) have a pretty big background in racing and getting your RX's suspension up to speck on that front and enjoy reading your posts here about the info you have to share. But this question is about a car that has road handling orientation with a massive potential for offroad ability without a dangerous compromise in road handling or to the owner or other road users.

Having a large lift, bigger wheels and sometimes an odd camber (from the larger wheels) can create a great off roader and daily driver without being dangerous if done properly.

The issue of being dragged over the coals in the event of a crash will happen to anyone - modified or un-modified, including people with performance vehicles such as your RX ellie... Its everyday living. Every vehicle is potentially a lethal weapon in the wrong hands (as you would know already).

JC, lift it and enjoy!

Cheers

Bennie

PS i'd love to see that prototype you talked about adrian.

[INEEDABEER]

At the end of the day still the most important component involved in any vehicle offroad or otherwise is still the nut behind the wheel.

[00outback]

Just lift the Liberty they handle just as good as a unlifted one, I've got a 2in lift in mine and I can't tell the difference it's like driving a unlifted liberty.