Lowering Springs, Struts & Shockers for a Vortex ?

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:13 pm

Fury wrote:Excuse me for being ignarant here, but you are trying to achieve the same, original ride height, as close as possible to the FWD ride height and ride characteristics, not the 4WD Vortex, although it is a 4wd, mainly because of design geometry etc?

I am trying to get the original ride height specified by RTA specs for this vehicle that was factory air suspension.Specs are for 4WD Turbo Vortex Full time 4WD, it is a 4WD Turbo Vortex full time 4WD, there are other specs for the FWD andpart ime 4WD Vortices. It is how it will be treated when presented for AUVIS blueslip

Minimum vertical measurement wheel centre to wheel arch

380mm on front, 325mm at rear for FT4WD Turbo
345mm front and 285mm for rears for PT4WD Turbo and FWD NA.

Maybe I am to correct self and say I am chasing minimums. The nominals are 407mm front, 355mm rears





Are you ever considering using a larger rim than the 13" , as this will make a big difference to your calculations.

Yes, but 185/70-13 are 590mm NOTD, and the 195/50 -15 is 577mm NOTD.
Should go 195/55-15 as they are 595mm



I guess I am more interested in why you would go to so much trouble to revert back to original specs ?

You should see what 4WD Wagon springs and shocks have done to it, knawful. I think I will be happy with the RTA data specs. It is low enough at the front 5mm below spec, just wanna bring rear into line

Is it just the fact that you are looking for something that works, comfortable, reliable and off the shelf ?
.

Thanks Chris, your input, CORRECTING ME and return is appreciated

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Fury
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Post by Fury » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:38 pm

When I was going through this excersize, The RTA specs were incorrect ! Because I am running 17" rims and WRX running gear, the suspension geometry has changed drastically from original.
When you change to 15" rims, you will run 50 or 55 series tires (I was running 60 with 14's) - I have the address of the mita tire guide comparison somewhere if you need it.
So your overall tyre dia stays the same. When I first reversed the mounts on the rear, it improved the handeling, then with the poly bushes better again. Then I did the EJ change - and everything needed changing again 8(
I actually have cut down rear wagon springs, as coilovers on the front, which actually are much better than the Eibachs springs, but still using the Eibach struts. This copes with the heavier EJ engine, but has a lighter spring rate than the Eibach spring.
I would actually like to put air back on, but the modern generation struts as used by BMW etc, which have 3/8" lines ( with quick air dump feed) and 10 way adjustable dampning.

The lower the rear, the better the handeling, but down too far, it starts to oversteer unless you bring your foot off the power too quick. As I remember, the std EA82 doesn't have any ( power...lol) unless the boost is wound up ( mine was running about 14lb)

I guess it also depends on how you drive too! you may not need to worry too much about handeling...

anyway, if you need a sounding board... just yell

PS edit... I had no probs with the RTA, as long as genuine Subi or Subi designed aftermarket parts were used. ( inc XT6 parts - air struts on the front for a while) -( and cross platform !)besides which, if it looks original, safe and not stupid, the blue slip guys don't mess with it. they are private mechanics authorised to blue slip it. If you have a blue slip guy that pedantic, go somewhere else.
Chris :cool:

'88 Vortex AWD turbo with "go hard" attitude -

WRX EJ20G and box , TD05 Turbo and 4.111 running gear.
5 Stud conversion (Crossbred Performance) Multi pot GT Legacy brakes and 17" rims
Plenty of plans... the plans are getting done slowly;).... getting there - NOT! ;)

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:47 pm

Argh, are you saying the specs sourced by RTA were incorrect? Or incorrect because you changed rims etc?

OK, I admit not wanting to drill holes into my boot too :) , my tinkering springs also have to go back into my sedan. The 4WD wagon rear springs may get tinkering cuts too

The attempt with all the data and springs from supplier was to achieve what looked correct in my figures from RTA SUBARU 4 for CPA #6816 off compliance plate.

Must get home, drill those holes before debating in head continues

J

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Fury
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Post by Fury » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:50 pm

steptoe wrote:Argh, are you saying the specs sourced by RTA were incorrect? Or incorrect because you changed rims etc?

OK, I admit not wanting to drill holes into my boot too :) , my tinkering springs also have to go back into my sedan. The 4WD wagon rear springs may get tinkering cuts too

The attempt with all the data and springs from supplier was to achieve what looked correct in my figures from RTA SUBARU 4 for CPA #6816 off compliance plate.

Must get home, drill those holes before debating in head continues

J


The RTA info that is recorded is incorrect
Chris :cool:

'88 Vortex AWD turbo with "go hard" attitude -

WRX EJ20G and box , TD05 Turbo and 4.111 running gear.
5 Stud conversion (Crossbred Performance) Multi pot GT Legacy brakes and 17" rims
Plenty of plans... the plans are getting done slowly;).... getting there - NOT! ;)

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:50 pm

Fury wrote:
The lower the rear, the better the handeling, but down too far, it starts to oversteer unless you bring your foot off the power too quick. As I remember, the std EA82 doesn't have any ( power...lol) unless the boost is wound up ( mine was running about 14lb)
Now I know what that engine in my shed has been through - you wound it up to double boost!! Maybe I should just throw it out?

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discopotato03
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Post by discopotato03 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:42 pm

Fury wrote:I am using adjustable WRX Eibach racing coilovers, and a 25mm rear sway bar, with Fulcrum poly bushes, very stiff. Ride height is higher than I had it from the previous post of mine (dated 09), with the rear tyres now at the same height as the arch, the fronts, about 30 mm from the top of the arch.
I am using 17" wrx alloy rims and 45 profile tyres, which are only 2/3s the weight of the originals and approx the same shaft angles as original. I believe that the offset is as close as you'll get without using bog standard rims. ( the larger wheels fill the wheel arch, but the hub is in approx the same position as original)

I was one of the first to use the Crossbred kit, ( using modified front control arms) and have had no problems at all with the front to date and only recently having issues to replace a rear bearing / shaft. Even tyre wear is remarkably good.

It handles like a go cart on rails, but long trips ( on old road surfaces)become tiresome as it is very bumpy. ( I'm old...:( lol)

The XT6 stuff, is not much different to a std L, except for 5 stud hubs but the XT/ Vortex AWD turbo, has a heavier, 25mm sway bar.

If an EJ engine and WRX / Liberty hub setup, ( as mine is) the std front shafts are under compression all the time. Chris Rogers spent a lot of time with Driveline services getting his wagon correctly setup, using fwd carby shafts converted to suit the inner and outer splines of the EJ and XT6 which apparently are pretty close.

I am looking at something similar when mine are redone, hopefully soon.
I think you'll find that if you are using a 25mm diameter rear anti roll bar it isn't a Subaru factory part . From memory the USDM WSMs quote XT6 rear bars as 19mm .
Also the XT6 front axle shafts are a unique length being longer than RX L /XT4 (same) and shorter than 1st gen Libertys .
The reason they are different is that XT6s use a front knuckle/CV joint thats different , shorter , than RX L / XT4 . These XT6 knuckles are not dimensionally the same as ist gen Lib either . They were also a hybrid meaning they had the caliper mounting ears set up to take the L type handbrake caliper rather than early Lib/Leg ones .
Also you are going to find that positive camber and negative caster are both wrong for good handling . The hardest thing to change markedly is the front caster because theres not really enough tower room to get the tops back far enough and you soon run out of wheel arch if you push the strut feet forward . Really the only way is to make up or extensively modify front control arms that allow the bottoms of the struts to be forward as far as possible without the tyres rubbing on the fronts of the arches . Then you have to make up one off radius/caster rods because the std ones are not long enough to do the job properly . People can make these rods properly so don't resort to rubbish Ford ones just because thats easy . When they break and you crash the savings are more than used up , possibly along with your car .
Then you need to have spherical joint strut tops made to get the struts back and small diameter springs and hats so they dont foul on the rear of the strut well .
I would be very suprised to find that 17" wheels and good tyres were lighter than OE XT6 14" ones unless these wheels were something exotic like the better Enkeis Rays etc forged ones .
I put Enkei RPF1s on my Lancer and they weigh 7.5 Kg in 17 x 8.5 , the 235/45/17 Michy PP3s weigh more than the rims . The std boots are 17 x 7.5 and 225/45/17 tyres . These Enkeis are Evo specific so the offset is std .

By comparison I think my rails are better than yours .

A .

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Fury
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Post by Fury » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:44 pm

steptoe wrote:Now I know what that engine in my shed has been through - you wound it up to double boost!! Maybe I should just throw it out?
It was a very good engine, well maintained had an intercooler (waic) and 14lb was never sustained ( that's the engine with the blue Spyder and Gold covers - right?)
The top radiator hose let go, towing a boat, down the Pacific freeway ( Southport exit) during a heatwave of 105c outside. Car was fully laden with film crew stuff ( I was Marine Opps coordinator for a film and used to tow boats alond the beach) and had the air going full blast.
temp went up quick ... then down, with steam out the exhaust.

After replacing the top hose, I nursed it all day, but did a few hundred k on it during the next week. compression was actually pretty even, but had started to use some water. I don't remember many more details, but it was running, just not great. It definately needed work. That's when I opted to throw in the EJ instead. I needed something reliable.
Chris :cool:

'88 Vortex AWD turbo with "go hard" attitude -

WRX EJ20G and box , TD05 Turbo and 4.111 running gear.
5 Stud conversion (Crossbred Performance) Multi pot GT Legacy brakes and 17" rims
Plenty of plans... the plans are getting done slowly;).... getting there - NOT! ;)

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Fury
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Post by Fury » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:17 pm

Discopotato03
discopotato03 wrote:I think you'll find that if you are using a 25mm diameter rear anti roll bar it isn't a Subaru factory part . From memory the USDM WSMs quote XT6 rear bars as 19mm .

My bad, I just measured it with digital calipers - 24mm. The XT & XT6 had 19mm as std, XT Fwd had I think a 16mm rear and AX7 ( XT turbo 4WD / AWD GL- not DL -the JDM rally build ) had 24mm (which was JDM ) Mine was factory supplied, but labled Vortex - but listed as XT, with a AX7 vin. (only one poly bush company from memory lists a 19 and 24 as std for an XT 4WD turbo)

I haven't seen another 24mm bar though. mind you, I havent seen many other Vortex turbo 4WD's - well up close anyhow. I have only seen an XT6 once - Belongs to Miles in western Sydney. A Nice machine.

Also the XT6 front axle shafts are a unique length being longer than RX L /XT4 (same) and shorter than 1st gen Libertys .
The reason they are different is that XT6s use a front knuckle/CV joint thats different , shorter , than RX L / XT4 .

There is not much in it, but granted, they are longer, but I am using gen 1 Liberty shafts since my conversion - a few years ago. I should get shorter shafts, but never got around to it.

These XT6 knuckles are not dimensionally the same as ist gen Lib either . They were also a hybrid meaning they had the caliper mounting ears set up to take the L type handbrake caliper rather than early Lib/Leg ones .

The XT6 hubs are a 1 off -the brakes being similar to the XT with some componants the same, but not the same exactly in every detail. It seems Subaru tried to carry it across the range, but in the end, couldn't. The disk braked rear end of the fwd XT, was also different to the 4wd version - if I remember correctly, the 4wd XT rears, shared with the RX turbo.

So I guess when it boils down to it, although similar, not the same

Also you are going to find that positive camber and negative caster are both wrong for good handling . The hardest thing to change markedly is the front caster because theres not really enough tower room to get the tops back far enough and you soon run out of wheel arch if you push the strut feet forward . Really the only way is to make up or extensively modify front control arms that allow the bottoms of the struts to be forward as far as possible without the tyres rubbing on the fronts of the arches . Then you have to make up one off radius/caster rods because the std ones are not long enough to do the job properly . People can make these rods properly so don't resort to rubbish Ford ones just because thats easy . When they break and you crash the savings are more than used up , possibly along with your car .
Then you need to have spherical joint strut tops made to get the struts back and small diameter springs and hats so they dont foul on the rear of the strut well .

I am using coilovers with adjustable tops, which give plenty of room, without altering the bottom end of the strut. Std springs, I agree, won't allow for adjustment, but using coilovers, I have plenty of room. Just another avenue to go down...

I would be very suprised to find that 17" wheels and good tyres were lighter than OE XT6 14" ones unless these wheels were something exotic like the better Enkeis Rays etc forged ones .
I put Enkei RPF1s on my Lancer and they weigh 7.5 Kg in 17 x 8.5 , the 235/45/17 Michy PP3s weigh more than the rims . The std boots are 17 x 7.5 and 225/45/17 tyres . These Enkeis are Evo specific so the offset is std .

I stand corrected again, just weighed them (while in the middle of typing this post) as you got me thinking ... 8.3kg - Subi WRX alloys (I think they are 01's) and 10.3kg for the steelies. The 14" marques that I had on my FWD, I think were heavier than that.

By comparison I think my rails are better than yours .

I wasn't trying to compete, I also don't claim it is a great ride either, as it is a hard bumpy. I would much rather have a sporty, but comfortable ride at my age. I wouldn't recomend my setup to anyone, unless they are going to drive hard all the time. (and with roads that don't have pothole repairs...) BUT it does handle very well - as long as I can continue to replace the poly bushes that seem to wear out way too fast. ( with another set for the rear end needing to be done again soon)
Chris :cool:

'88 Vortex AWD turbo with "go hard" attitude -

WRX EJ20G and box , TD05 Turbo and 4.111 running gear.
5 Stud conversion (Crossbred Performance) Multi pot GT Legacy brakes and 17" rims
Plenty of plans... the plans are getting done slowly;).... getting there - NOT! ;)

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:20 pm

Hmmm, not like Disco to make a claim like that, on a car that has been for sale since May elsewhere :)

Chris, do we have any specs that are correct for the AX7, and real ones I can use with the ground, wheel rim bottoms and wheel arches with a trusty tape measure.

I really want to make use of most of what I thought I got when I bought it. Keeping fronts as is for now, and want to proportionally match rar height to front using ome specs as a guide.

Note the ...hang on, I'l get a sketch up....

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:42 pm

Image

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The above is what I have. Variant 3 refers to the AX7 FT 4WD Turbo

They list the major dimension of height at kerb weight of 1330mm - , Subaru manuals for 86 show 4WD Turbo PT at 1335mm

Better look at overall picture? No, lookin' at its arse end - at least gotta get the water of the boot lid drain area wash back on level ground not sit around up the front near the hinges!!

A note here if you are looking at that 325mm for Variant 3 rear - later on in this saga you will read I have achieved the factory rear suspension minimum of 230mm measured between ground and lowest part of suspension tube at the side/end for the 4WD Vortex and that vertical wheel centre to wheel arch measurement is 360mm. There is absolutely no way the 325mm is true for this car - shall I be diplomatic and say it is a typographical error and leave it at that?
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Fury
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Post by Fury » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:02 pm

steptoe wrote:Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The above is what I have. Variant 3 refers to the AX7 FT 4WD Turbo

They list the major dimension of height at kerb weight of 1330mm - , Subaru manuals for 86 show 4WD Turbo PT at 1335mm

Better look at overall picture? No, lookin' at its arse end - at least gotta get the water of the boot lid drain area wash back on level ground not sit around up the front near the hinges!!

This data is from the workshop manual? which edition?
how do they compare with the RTA specs? I guess you posted them earlier - I should go take a look..

I have an an 85MY and a 88 fsm, ill see if I can find the details ( rummages through storage tubs, and dives into the abiss... )
Chris :cool:

'88 Vortex AWD turbo with "go hard" attitude -

WRX EJ20G and box , TD05 Turbo and 4.111 running gear.
5 Stud conversion (Crossbred Performance) Multi pot GT Legacy brakes and 17" rims
Plenty of plans... the plans are getting done slowly;).... getting there - NOT! ;)

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:27 pm

Sorry, details... Jonno, details. Chris, lifted from NSW RTA data sheet SUBARU 4, with a manufacturers reference SE-3207B-02, June '87 CPA # 681602

from the Australian Motor Vehicle Certification Board.

I cannot find similar specs in my 86 FSM's

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:48 pm

is there anything wrong in thinking this awesome looking untouched? example of a FT4WD Turbo Vortex must sit? I think I have this image in mind fitting the specs :)

SWEET

Image

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Lifted from SubaruXT.com pics of XT or XT6 section

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Fury
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Post by Fury » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:58 pm

I cant find it in mine either, ( yes found them, but not the one on the PC - probably different hard drive.
That looks pretty damn good to me. If memory serves me correctly, RTA had the wagon rear specs, but mine went through fine and even after a potential defect notice ( RTA blitz - where I had an answer for everything and finally got me on the XT6 front air struts, not having an ADR number...shakes head) couldn't pick a thing - even with the EJ and no engineers plate... it is within 12 .5% of original displacement - NSW allows 15% - and thats the RTA inspectors, not the blue slip approved private mechanics businesses.

You'll have no probs.

Oh, I found some mistakes in some of my previous details, it's 20, not 19 for the rear bar, 19 on the fronts.. and 12 on the rear FWD rear bar...
Chris :cool:

'88 Vortex AWD turbo with "go hard" attitude -

WRX EJ20G and box , TD05 Turbo and 4.111 running gear.
5 Stud conversion (Crossbred Performance) Multi pot GT Legacy brakes and 17" rims
Plenty of plans... the plans are getting done slowly;).... getting there - NOT! ;)

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:48 pm

peh, you just gotta love th organisational skills of the FSM writers - found some too

But not for the AX7, it is a start. SUSPENSION 4-1 p 28 for 86 manual anyway , it is the text not just specs stuff.

Front Ground Clearance Adjustment

Is measured from the centre of the bolt hole of the transverse link (lower control arm)

The Sedan 4WD is 266 +12/-22mm
The Wagon 4WD is 270 same plus or minus mm
4WD XT 255 plus or minus same

The rear suspension height is measured as the height of the rear cross member pipe where the outer swing arms go back to axle just in at the front of rear wheel opening.

Measured from the underside of pipe.
Sedan 4WD 265 +10/-20mm
Wags 4WD 279 +10/-20 mm
XT 4WD 250 +10/-20

These are the specified ground clearances for 86 stuff, so we now need 87 or 88 manuals to get the FT4WD Turbo specs

A littl further we get the three stage rear shock pic with confirming 15mm increase each step and it was not a Vortex XT item

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:51 pm

oh !! :) I guess an up to 15% increase from turbo engine to another turbo engine works without engineers certificate and comes under the "Owner certified modification rule"

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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:00 pm

Found simply 1800 4WD or 4WD 2700 in the electronic version of the free downloads 88 XT

Front 255 +10/-20 mm , Rear 250 +10/-20 mm for the 18004WD
Front 253 +10/-20 mm Rear 248 +10/-20 mm for the 2700 4WD

No mention of the FT4WD Turbo XT4 being any different

If not correct , replace springs advice, so not really covering the air bag stuff - I thnk I see what you mean Chris

I'd better say thankyou and goodnight :)

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:13 pm

Notice on the US 88 manuals their spring rate was 180 lb compared 85 86 in our manuls being 160 lb. There was a change in the length of the shock about 87 on , shortening the spring fitted - giving higher rate ? Or that would be measured before fittng eh ?

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Post by Fury » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:17 pm

steptoe wrote:oh !! :) I guess an up to 15% increase from turbo engine to another turbo engine works without engineers certificate and comes under the "Owner certified modification rule"


YEP... exactly. I spoke directly to an RTA engineer / customer service advisor at the time, and as the original EJ engine testing was installed in an ALCYONE XT wide body ( yes there was a real widebody version - which details can be found in threads on the subaruxt forum) the engine was regarded as an option in the design concepts.. even though it never made it into the production line.

so, 15% displacement will allow for a NA 2.2, or a turbo 2.0.
if the vin states it was originally a turbo unit ( the vin code sequence is in the FSM) then a upgrade turbo engine, of the same style, and by the same manufacturer can be installed. I did provide proof to the blueslip engineer, but apparently an engineer's cert was not required for the upgrade, unless there were parts modified to fit - which there technically some things, which they didn't find - or turned a blind eye to..

BTW, my 88 FSM is only a suppliment , found some of that info, but getting too late to constipate... concentrate..

That pic is like the pretty twin sister to mine. boy I got some work to do...:(
Chris :cool:

'88 Vortex AWD turbo with "go hard" attitude -

WRX EJ20G and box , TD05 Turbo and 4.111 running gear.
5 Stud conversion (Crossbred Performance) Multi pot GT Legacy brakes and 17" rims
Plenty of plans... the plans are getting done slowly;).... getting there - NOT! ;)

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steptoe
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Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:21 pm

Aw, NSW RTA specs on L Series wagon 4WD appears to be limited to just one document in the electronic - the 1985 Touring Wagon with suspension specswheel centre to wheel arch

........................FRONT REAR
standard.............385 380
minimum..............365 355

Poor devils if they tred to apply that to your application !!

They may have other paper copies of the extra years - would hope so !

Wheel arch measures cannot count here surely as different body shape, so figures above in this post cannot be even compared

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