Silverbullet's resto: Bodywork

Show off your Subaru to other members. Tell us a bit about it. What mods you have done or have planned for the near future.
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RSR 555
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Post by RSR 555 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:09 pm

Silverbullet wrote:No worries Paul, first it has to be seen if it's even possible; one end of the rod is forged flat and it's un-confirmed whether chrome moly steel can be forged easily. I can't see any reason why not though.
Ok. Well I was thinking of just using the old bar and cut in half, then use a piece of Hex Rod. Then drill and tap a thread in the Hex Rod, then cut a thread on the Radius Rod and as the side that has the bush can spin, then it can have RH threads in either end. Then have a couple of the Lock Nuts on each end of the Hex Rod.
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Post by Silverbullet » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:10 pm

Well actually finding the right material has been more of a challenge than I thought! 2 local specialist steel suppliers couldn't help me, regular steel yards have never heard of 4130 chromoly...looks like online+postage could be the only option.

As for modding the old radius rods idea Paul it would be possible to do it that way but the stock rods are a weird size (17mm or thereabouts) not really a common thread size to buy a thread die for, same for the tap for making the hex nut. Only option then would be to machine it down to 16mm and cut an M16 thread but then you'd loose a fair bit of strength, and I've seen the stock ones bend as they are! With the chromoly (available in 16mm or 19mm solid diameter) there's no way you'd ever bend one. Probably destroy the rod to body mounting brackets but :rolleyes:
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RSR 555
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Post by RSR 555 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:31 am

I can get some 4140 Hex Rod and my good friend can thread the bar and rod to any size required. I would prefer to keep the radius rod the weakest link, as it's designed to stop damage further up the line :)
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Post by henpecked » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:36 pm

RSR 555 wrote:..... I would prefer to keep the radius rod the weakest link, as it's designed to stop damage further up the line :)
very good point , cheaper to replace than doing a chassis pull or mount repair etc

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Post by Silverbullet » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:02 pm

RSR 555 wrote:I can get some 4140 Hex Rod and my good friend can thread the bar and rod to any size required. I would prefer to keep the radius rod the weakest link, as it's designed to stop damage further up the line :)
So are you talking about still using the old mild steel radius rod? with a big long 4140 nut? Or making a whole new radius rod out of 4140. I'm saying if you modify the old radius rod you'd have to machine it down to 16mm for an M16 thread, unless you want some weird 17mm hybrid which you wouldn't find a thread tap for to make the threaded nut. Internal thread cutting on the lathe might be possible but why complicate things :)

My plan was to make a whole new rod (doesn't have to be chromoly, could be mild steel if you want it to still be the weak link) and have the adjustable option at the bushing end with locking nuts, so the rod is still entirely one piece. Only thought of doing it this way because it's how I've seen it done before :) Hadn't thought of the two-piece with a big nut in the middle. Would look more suspect to any cop having a peek underneath (adjustable anything suspension is instant defect here :()

Anyway there won't be any adjustable anything if I can't find the material, unless you get a pair made at your end as you say. Incidentally, 4140 may not be the best material for the job since most of it's strength properties only come in once it's been heat treated, it's mainly used as hardened shafts and pins in machinery, gearboxes etc. 4130 on the other hand is bloody strong stuff even when "soft" More easily welded too.

Bleh I sure love to ramble, this was only meant to be a short post :rolleyes:
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Post by NachaLuva » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:07 pm

Nice job on the painting :cool:

Good luck with the radius rods, keep searching & you'll find a solution ;)
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RSR 555
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Post by RSR 555 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:59 am

Silverbullet wrote:So are you talking about still using the old mild steel radius rod? with a big long 4140 nut? Or making a whole new radius rod out of 4140. I'm saying if you modify the old radius rod you'd have to machine it down to 16mm for an M16 thread, unless you want some weird 17mm hybrid which you wouldn't find a thread tap for to make the threaded nut. Internal thread cutting on the lathe might be possible but why complicate things :)
The standard rod is spring steel from my understanding. As for how I'd do it, see post #141. Thread size would be something like 11/16 UNF. Cutting internal threads is just as easy as external threads on the lathe.
Silverbullet wrote:My plan was to make a whole new rod (doesn't have to be chromoly, could be mild steel if you want it to still be the weak link) and have the adjustable option at the bushing end with locking nuts, so the rod is still entirely one piece. Only thought of doing it this way because it's how I've seen it done before :) Hadn't thought of the two-piece with a big nut in the middle. Would look more suspect to any cop having a peek underneath (adjustable anything suspension is instant defect here :()
It's not like a big nut, it's more like a long rod with the original rods sticking out each end. The threads on the Radius Rod would just about touch in the middle but move out only the distance you moved the lower control arm forward. There of course be 2 locking nuts at either end of the Hex Rod.
Silverbullet wrote:Anyway there won't be any adjustable anything if I can't find the material, unless you get a pair made at your end as you say. Incidentally, 4140 may not be the best material for the job since most of it's strength properties only come in once it's been heat treated, it's mainly used as hardened shafts and pins in machinery, gearboxes etc. 4130 on the other hand is bloody strong stuff even when "soft" More easily welded too.
I can have them made over here or if you want, buy these...
http://www.ingallseng.com/38100-subaru- ... t-rod.html

As for 4140...
4140 is a 1% chromium - molybdenum medium hardenability general purpose high tensile steel - generally supplied hardened and tempered in the tensile range of 850 - 1000 Mpa (condition T).4140 is now available with improved machinability, which greatly increases feeds and/or speeds, while also extending tool life without adversley affecting mechanical properties.

Pre hardened and tempered 4140 can be further surface hardened by flame or induction hardening and by nitriding.

4140 is used extensively in most industry sectors for a wide range of applications such as:
Adapters, Arbors, Axle Shafts, Bolts, Crankshafts, Connection Rods, Chuck Bodies, Collets, Conveyor Pins & Rolls, Ejector Pins, Forks, Gears, Guide Rods, Hydraulic Shafts & Parts,Lathe Spindles, Logging Parts, Milling Spindles, Motor Shafts, Nuts, Pinch Bars, Pins Various, Pinions, Pump Shafts, Rams, Sockets, Spindles, Sprockets, Studs, Tool Holders, Torsion Bars, Worms etc..
You know you are getting old when the candles on your birthday cake start to cost more than the cake itself.

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Post by henpecked » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:44 pm

Silverbullet wrote:...........Also sorting out to get some chromoly steel adjustable radius rods made up, improve the caster angle a bit hopefully without stressing the LCA bushes too much. If anyone wants a pair let me know since I'll probably have to buy a minimum amount of steel bar as well :rolleyes:
I was trying to sort out wahy we needed caster to be adjustable on the brumby/my here were some explainations of adjustable castor from another site/s


http://www.yokohamatire.com

The goal of proper caster alignment is to achieve optimal balance between low-speed steering effort and high-speed stability. An increasingly positive caster enhances high-speed stability, but increases low-speed steering effort. An increasingly negative aster decreases low-speed steering effort and high-speed stability. For cars with power steering, an increase in low-speed steering effort increases the rate of wear in the power steering system. With most suspension designs, there is a trade-off between caster and camber angles at the extreme limits.

from old dead site

If the caster is out of adjustment, it can cause problems in straight line tracking. If the caster is different from side to side, the vehicle will pull to the side with the less positive caster. If the caster is equal but too negative, the steering will be light and the vehicle will wander and be difficult to keep in a straight line. If the caster is equal but too positive, the steering will be heavy and the steering wheel may kick when you hit a bump. Caster has little affect on tire wear.

http://www.aligncraft.com/terms/terms.html#FrontCaster
Effects of Caster on Tire Wear
When set with a substantial amount of caster, the spindle travels in a vertical arc, causing it to move up and down and raise and lower the wheels as the steering wheel is turned. Because of this, camber changes occur. With a high amount of positive caster, the camber changes that occur, especially at low speeds in tight turns, cause the tires to show wear on their shoulders. In high speed cornering, the vehicle tends to continue straight ahead when the steering is initially turned. Due to this, and the amount of camber change that takes place when a spindle travels through its arc of travel, the shoulders of the tires on a vehicle may scrub and wear. When a left turn is made at a fairly high rate of speed with a vehicle which has positive caster, the caster of the left front wheel changes toward positive but the momentum of the vehicle is in a straight ahead direction. This causes the inside of the left front tire to scrub as it is turned. Just the opposite effect takes place on the right wheel as the vehicle is turned left at high speed. The right front wheel's camber will go negative but the outside edge of the tire is scrubbed because of the vehicle's momentum to go straight. On some vehicles setting caster more than +2.5° will cause scrub problems.


what are you concerned about ?

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Post by Silverbullet » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:13 pm

RSR 555 wrote:I can have them made over here or if you want, buy these...
http://www.ingallseng.com/38100-subaru- ... t-rod.html
Sheesh, for that price why am I bothering? :rolleyes: That's exactly the design I had in mind.
RSR 555 wrote: As for 4140...
4140 is a 1% chromium - molybdenum medium hardenability general purpose high tensile steel - generally supplied hardened and tempered in the tensile range of 850 - 1000 Mpa (condition T).4140 is now available with improved machinability, which greatly increases feeds and/or speeds, while also extending tool life without adversley affecting mechanical properties.

etc..
Well shut my mouth, the suppliers information sheet I read had slightly different info, and whenever I've worked with 4140 in the past it's always been for hardened shafts (flame hardened and quenched in oil after machining) or locking pins in machinery etc. Never thought of it as suitable for this application, looks like I was wrong!
henpecked wrote: http://www.aligncraft.com/terms/terms.html#FrontCaster
"Just the opposite effect takes place on the right wheel as the vehicle is turned left at high speed. The right front wheel's camber will go negative..."
This line has me completely stumped :confused: How can the right hand wheel in a left hand turn go negative camber, that makes no sense to me.

Ok so this is what I'm worried about:
From driving my old wagon in the past, and the Brumby now, it is clear they don't corner as well as they should. Example in a turn at high(ish) speeds like when accelerating out of larger roundabouts, it feels like the car is just pushing forward regardless of the front wheels steering like it's trying to roll the tyres off the rims. Is this what you would call under-steer? I've also heard it described in these cars as the front wheels wanting to "tuck under". So in our left hand turn example in the MY's the right hand wheel goes positive camber trying to tuck under which results in the car ploughing forwards in a higher speed turn. All of this is not helped by the horrendous positive camber these cars already have (tyres wear on the outsides constantly) which is harder to adjust.

I've heard from 2 other former Brumby owners (not on this site, just in conversation) that when they put longer radius rods on (there's a how to thread on offroadingsubarus.com I believe) The car felt alot more solid through corners, wheels didn't tuck under etc etc. In the face of it I know this sounds a bit like wishy washy anecdotal evidence, maybe I'm talking out my A$$ :rolleyes: But There's definitely some strange front wheel geometry from the factory, adjustable radius rods may help to correct some of it. And if it doesn't? Then I'll just adjust my rods back to factory settings and no harm done eh ;)

In other news I've sourced the steel I was originally after, online ordering makes life so much easier :) So if you guys are still interested in my original idea with the chromoly rods, give me a hoy. I'll probably order enough material for 5 pairs of rods anyway, seems like a nice round number.
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Post by RSR 555 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:15 pm

henpecked wrote:I was trying to sort out wahy we needed caster to be adjustable on the brumby/my here were some explainations of adjustable castor from another site/s
The main reason for caster is to self centre wheels after making a turn. The more or less caster allows the vehicle to perform differently, so depending on what you want from the car you have it adjusted accordingly. I personally like slight a bit more positive than the normal positive amount for 2 reasons. 1, it allows for large tyres to fit without rubbing on the back of the front wheel. 2, it makes the steering return to centre faster. Too much caster can cause tyres excessive wear. There a fine line and takes a few times at the alignment place to get it right for your driving styles.
Silverbullet wrote:Sheesh, for that price why am I bothering? :rolleyes: That's exactly the design I had in mind.
I don't know why? you can only answer that yourself :p
Silverbullet wrote:Well shut my mouth, the suppliers information sheet I read had slightly different info, and whenever I've worked with 4140 in the past it's always been for hardened shafts (flame hardened and quenched in oil after machining) or locking pins in machinery etc. Never thought of it as suitable for this application, looks like I was wrong!
You can harden if further by the method you mentioned if you're trying to make something like punches and the like but it's already hard enough to use for what I would use it for.
Silverbullet wrote:This line has me completely stumped :confused: How can the right hand wheel in a left hand turn go negative camber, that makes no sense to me.
Yes.. the left hand wheel goes positive during a left hand turn whilst the right goes negative. The tyre rolls under due to the tyre's profile due to the weight wanting to go straight. This is why low profile tyres are favoured for racing. But for the caster the left hand wheel goes positive around a left hand turn, it also causes the suspension to rise and this makes the car want to drive straight as it wants to re right itself.
Silverbullet wrote:Ok so this is what I'm worried about:
From driving my old wagon in the past, and the Brumby now, it is clear they don't corner as well as they should. Example in a turn at high(ish) speeds like when accelerating out of larger roundabouts, it feels like the car is just pushing forward regardless of the front wheels steering like it's trying to roll the tyres off the rims. Is this what you would call under-steer? I've also heard it described in these cars as the front wheels wanting to "tuck under". So in our left hand turn example in the MY's the right hand wheel goes positive camber trying to tuck under which results in the car ploughing forwards in a higher speed turn. All of this is not helped by the horrendous positive camber these cars already have (tyres wear on the outsides constantly) which is harder to adjust.
This is due to the agricultural setup of the early Subarus. There is lots of different ways to play with your suspension setup to improve it but when Subaru built them, they just mass produced them to be all the same but in reality every car is different. Most of the time people just think it's normal but once you've had a car that performs they way you drive, it's hard to go back to the old systems. Best example.. go and drive a 1970 GT Falcon
Silverbullet wrote:I've heard from 2 other former Brumby owners (not on this site, just in conversation) that when they put longer radius rods on (there's a how to thread on offroadingsubarus.com I believe) The car felt alot more solid through corners, wheels didn't tuck under etc etc. In the face of it I know this sounds a bit like wishy washy anecdotal evidence, maybe I'm talking out my A$$ :rolleyes: But There's definitely some strange front wheel geometry from the factory, adjustable radius rods may help to correct some of it. And if it doesn't? Then I'll just adjust my rods back to factory settings and no harm done eh ;)
Any adjustment to all points of your suspension will either help or not help your steering. IMO you can only improve it if you have the ability to do so :)
Silverbullet wrote:In other news I've sourced the steel I was originally after, online ordering makes life so much easier :) So if you guys are still interested in my original idea with the chromoly rods, give me a hoy. I'll probably order enough material for 5 pairs of rods anyway, seems like a nice round number.
Bugger.. Why didn't you ask me first ??
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Post by Silverbullet » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:21 pm

RSR 555 wrote:Yes.. the left hand wheel goes positive during a left hand turn whilst the right goes negative. The tyre rolls under due to the tyre's profile due to the weight wanting to go straight.
Tyre rolls under, that would mean the top of the wheel leaning outwards while the bottom of the wheel goes inwards? This is positive camber isn't it? \ _ / is positive / _ \ is negative?
RSR 555 wrote: Bugger.. Why didn't you ask me first ??
I haven't ordered anything yet! :o just got a quote from an online supplier.


In other news! I went to U-pull it this morning and picked up a couple of decent fenders/guards, they're just resting on the car at the moment but they make it look more like a car now :rolleyes: Wasn't much else worth taking, still looking for another good bonnet after the wind blew mine over and flattened the center bulge at the front :(

Also I had heaps of stuff lined up to do this weekend; wheel bearings, suspension bushes, front strut top blocks need fabricating...but didn't get a thing done today! The old bushing shells just do not want to come out by cutting so I'm going to have to press them out as well...wheel bearings are too tight to tap in on the bench so they need pressing also...and I got my hands on some re-conditioned Subaru 6 bearing front axles for the Brumby so they're sitting over there tempting me to work on that car, and the new dizzy.

Ah well, the weekend is still young :rolleyes:
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Post by steptoe » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:40 pm

Sam, while the topic is hot, those radius rods, castor bars - seen 4WD L300 ones on a Brumby. 4WD may not be correct, definitely Mistu L300. May have adjustment.

The turn in and nearly buckle under angles the MY fronts get, is horrendous. They aren't race cars. And, as the guy selling me his old Brumby 15 years ago reminded me - they are a light truck, not a car.
I used to get perfect wear across my front tyres - no more, its the outer edges copping it :(
One day I may have to cobble up some L Series stuff and see what peeps talked about years ago !

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Post by RSR 555 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:22 am

Silverbullet wrote:Tyre rolls under, that would mean the top of the wheel leaning outwards while the bottom of the wheel goes inwards? This is positive camber isn't it? \ _ / is positive / _ \ is negative?
Yes /_\ is negative but this is how the car would be on a left hand turn \ _\ (these are always the views looking from the rear of the car) This is designed like this to have the car return the steering to centre once you release the steering wheel. This the flanged hub angles, the tyres just rolls under (due to vehicle momentum) but this doesn't change the suspension geometry.
Silverbullet wrote:I haven't ordered anything yet! :o just got a quote from an online supplier.
Yeah no worries Sam.. I was just having a laugh :) If you meet me you know I like to joke a lot. That's why Jules (TOONGA) and I give each other sh!t on here.. we both know we are just taking the piss out of each other ;)
Silverbullet wrote:In other news! I went to U-pull it this morning and picked up a couple of decent fenders/guards, they're just resting on the car at the moment but they make it look more like a car now :rolleyes: Wasn't much else worth taking, still looking for another good bonnet after the wind blew mine over and flattened the center bulge at the front :(

Also I had heaps of stuff lined up to do this weekend; wheel bearings, suspension bushes, front strut top blocks need fabricating...but didn't get a thing done today! The old bushing shells just do not want to come out by cutting so I'm going to have to press them out as well...wheel bearings are too tight to tap in on the bench so they need pressing also...and I got my hands on some re-conditioned Subaru 6 bearing front axles for the Brumby so they're sitting over there tempting me to work on that car, and the new dizzy.

Ah well, the weekend is still young :rolleyes:
I'd be able to help you with a bonnet, will just cost you a trip to WA :) and while you're here, you can work your magic on my hatch :p

For the bushings, try cutting 2 cuts 180deg apart from each other, then pry off with a small chisel. As for the bearings (and bushes for this too) put them in the freezer for a couple of hours, then they should just drop straight in.

Sounds like you've got your weekend booked out.. enjoy
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Post by Proton mouse » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:01 pm

RSR 555 wrote:Yes /_\ is positive but this is how the car.....
Aaghh hmmmmm.....Paul, I think the rest of the world calls /_\ that negative camber!

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Post by henpecked » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:40 pm


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Post by d_generate » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:48 pm

Yes they do.......personally I think it should be the other way around because it sounds better but back in the old days most cars had \ / positive camber.

As a point of interest I came across 2 silver wagons identical to yours sitting under a tarp and camouflage sheet a week or so ago, unfortunately they are about 400kl north of Perth in Northampton on a little back street, the one I could easily see has had what looks like a light smack in the snout but has an alloy bar and the ?snowflake hotwire style mags, I have the name of the business and street name but can't upload the pics because TELSTRAAAAAAAAAA has messed me around and I'm on dial up speed for another 14 days, I could probably email the 2 pics I have if anyone wants have a look and upload them, just give me a pm.
98 Libbo with V3 STI running gear. 13.0 @ 105mph with CAI & 3" Zorst:mrgreen:
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Post by d_generate » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:23 pm

eMailed the pics to Henpecked so hopefully he can post them here.
98 Libbo with V3 STI running gear. 13.0 @ 105mph with CAI & 3" Zorst:mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKrsF-2JS3M :twisted:
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Post by RSR 555 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:56 pm

Proton mouse wrote:Aaghh hmmmmm.....Paul, I think the rest of the world calls /_\ that negative camber!
Sorry.. yes I wrote that the wrong way around, as you could tell I was in agreement with Sam. I wrote it correctly in an earlier post, so sorry if I confused anyone.. I know this is negative and can't explain why I wrote positive. I know this because I just got my new tyres fitted to the 22B and asked for extra negative camber. I think I wrote it because I was talking about caster earlier on. Will change now ;)
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Post by RSR 555 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:02 pm

d_generate wrote:As a point of interest I came across 2 silver wagons identical to yours sitting under a tarp and camouflage sheet a week or so ago, unfortunately they are about 400kl north of Perth in Northampton on a little back street, the one I could easily see has had what looks like a light smack in the snout but has an alloy bar and the ?snowflake hotwire style mags, I have the name of the business and street name but can't upload the pics because TELSTRAAAAAAAAAA has messed me around and I'm on dial up speed for another 14 days, I could probably email the 2 pics I have if anyone wants have a look and upload them, just give me a pm.
You can email to me. I can get WayneO to drop around.. he's only 30mins up the road
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Post by d_generate » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:21 pm

Yeah I figured he would be the closest, or the twin engined Brumby (a little closer) they look like they have been sitting for years but under some cover and shaded by big trees, it's a Bed & Breakfast and they are sitting on the edge of the block, I haven't got your email addy, only skype but downloading to photobucket is a pita so can't post myself.
98 Libbo with V3 STI running gear. 13.0 @ 105mph with CAI & 3" Zorst:mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKrsF-2JS3M :twisted:
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