Performance tyres for Outback ?
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- Gannon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4580
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Bowraville, Mid Nth Coast, NSW
Sound good, what did you pay for them?
If I can find a Dunlop dealer around here, I will go check them out
If I can find a Dunlop dealer around here, I will go check them out
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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I edited my previous posting and put more description in it. I paid $143 per LM703 tyre of a size of 205/70R15. This is an average price for a similar tyre from competitors. But it has a softer compound, this is why it will wear faster. This is also why it is not recommended for driving on gravel roads. The tyre salesman told me it was a "premium tyre", and on a website of another tyre fitter it was referred to as a "high-quality tyre". I would call it a bullshit, because it is an entry-level tyre targeted exclusively at the Asian markets. It is not a particularly high-quality tyre, as the fitter put the weights of 30-45 g on each tyre. My previous BF Goodrich tyres used the weights of no more than 20 g. The tyres are available only from "Dunlop Super Dealers". The tyres are manufactured in Indonesia.
The weights you need to balance your tyres and rim doesn't indicate quality of tread or compound. You're talking about 20g - 40grams for a few thousand grams of tyre and rim. There are so many variables that contribute to how much weight goes on your rim that i can't really be bothered going into them. A large part of that is how the fitter lines up the heavy spot of the tyre and rim (or counter weight them actually), which many don't do because it's not a standard practice to spin up the rim seperately unless your paying for a top dollar premium balance. I might add that a premium balance is worth the dollars because it will increase tyre life provided your wheel alignment is correct and maintained through out the life of the tyre.
In fact i would say that 99% of tyres i saw never really reached their full mileage potential because people failed to maintain the vehicles wheel alignment and do regular tyre rotations. Unless you're doing that then the difference in compound doesn't really come into play.
In fact i would say that 99% of tyres i saw never really reached their full mileage potential because people failed to maintain the vehicles wheel alignment and do regular tyre rotations. Unless you're doing that then the difference in compound doesn't really come into play.
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I agree with the statement. However, the lesser amount of weights or even the absense of those is the indication that the manufacturer aligned correctly the belts with the raw rubber during the process of manufacturing which says about the quality approach to manufacturing. Michelin tyres are believed to not require the weights. I have no other direct methods to assess the tyre quality.Venom wrote:The weights you need to balance your tyres and rim doesn't indicate quality of tread or compound.
So, you appear to be a tyre fitter. I paid the standard asked price for the tyres (no discounts). Is it reasonable for me to expect that the tyre fitter would align the red or yellow dot with the low marking on the rim or valve stem, correspondingly ? (The tyre fitter commented that they did not do this because "the difference in their experience was negligible"). I am asking this because I am thinking whether I should ask them to re-fit the tyre.A large part of that is how the fitter lines up the heavy spot of the tyre and rim (or counter weight them actually), which many don't do because it's not a standard practice to spin up the rim seperately unless your paying for a top dollar premium balance.
Using the weight balance of the tyre as a measure of the manufacturng quality is fine, but you're basing it on the balancing of a tyre on the rim. The rims are not perfectly balanced either, so you need to quantify that before judging the tyre.valerian wrote:I agree with the statement. However, the lesser amount of weights or even the absense of those is the indication that the manufacturer aligned correctly the belts with the raw rubber during the process of manufacturing which says about the quality approach to manufacturing. Michelin tyres are believed to not require the weights. I have no other direct methods to assess the tyre quality.
So, you appear to be a tyre fitter. I paid the standard asked price for the tyres (no discounts). Is it reasonable for me to expect that the tyre fitter would align the red or yellow dot with the low marking on the rim or valve stem, correspondingly ? (The tyre fitter commented that they did not do this because "the difference in their experience was negligible"). I am asking this because I am thinking whether I should ask them to re-fit the tyre.
The yellow mark is the light point of the tyre, which would ideally be aligned with the heavy point of the rim. Alinging it with the valve is assuming thats the heavy point, and it rarely is. It looks good when the customer sees it because it looks "right". you can't ask for more precise balancing without using a more precise balancing method, which you haven't paid for.
A more precision method of balancing rims and tyres is to use finger plates that hold the rim at the stud holes. A standard balance uses the cone in the centre, which isn't as accurate becaues that's not how the wheel is mounted on the car. Using the finger plate you would run the rim on the balancer, find and mark the heavy point. Then when fitting the new tyre you would align the yellow mark with the heavy point of the rim. That will give you the lowest possible weight that could be required to mount that particular tyre on that particular rim. I'm at uni these days but when i go in with my own car to where i used to work i do a premium balance and rotate every 5 - 7,000 kms.
Not every tyre shop is reputable so even if you pay for a premium balance you might not get it. Company owned stores tend to be better than franchise, because a manager of the company store is more concerned with service while a franchise owner wants to make money ( big generalisation, but true in my experience). I've seen cars sit on a wheel alignment machine for 30 mins then come off, and no wheel alignment has been done. People have payed for a 4 wheel balance and rotation and the front tyres go straight to the rear with no balance done (standard practice). Stand out front and watch, and if you get a wheel alignment ask for a print out. If they won't give you one go somewhere else. Any good tyre shop i worked out did a print out as standard with every alignment.
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I had a phone conversation with a support engineer from Goodyear/Dunlop. He told me that the tyre was designed with the red and yellow dots for a reason -- and the tyre dealer has to match either red or yellow dot to the rim. I told him that the tyre dealer said that the "difference was negligible". The support engineer told me that the dealer likely invented the excuse "post factum". The support engineer told me that he was sending a representative to the tyre dealer.Venom wrote: The yellow mark is the light point of the tyre, which would ideally be aligned with the heavy point of the rim. Alinging it with the valve is assuming thats the heavy point, and it rarely is. It looks good when the customer sees it because it looks "right". you can't ask for more precise balancing without using a more precise balancing method, which you haven't paid for.
![Confused :confused:](./images/smilies/confused.gif)
EDIT. Today I went to the tyre fitter. I am not sure whether the Dunlop representative spoke to them or not, but the manager started to talk to me about refitting the tyre straight away
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
- Gannon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4580
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Bowraville, Mid Nth Coast, NSW
Well I went and new tyres on Friday, I chose the Bridgestone Ecopia EP100 in 215/60R1695H. They were also on special, down from about $185 each, so I paid, with NRMA discount, $150 each, plus $60 wheel alignment.
Having driven only 15km home, I cannot really comment on how they feel, but I did notice a difference, I just haven't worked out if it was good or not.
I do think that new swaybar bushes are needed and possibly new struts because my car feels a little, sway'ey in the rear. Id like to put larger swaybars on, but as a family car, I dont want to make my car likely to snap oversteer, so was thinking maybe the front and rear swaybars from a B4. Would this be a bad combination with the extra height of the Outback?
Having driven only 15km home, I cannot really comment on how they feel, but I did notice a difference, I just haven't worked out if it was good or not.
I do think that new swaybar bushes are needed and possibly new struts because my car feels a little, sway'ey in the rear. Id like to put larger swaybars on, but as a family car, I dont want to make my car likely to snap oversteer, so was thinking maybe the front and rear swaybars from a B4. Would this be a bad combination with the extra height of the Outback?
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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- Gannon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4580
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Bowraville, Mid Nth Coast, NSW
Small update....
I drove some more today and noticed that the road noise is louder than the last tyres, and especially when cornering. So I popped into the servo and checked the pressure with one of those new digital tyre pumps. 39 psi !!! Maybe this is why the car seems a little 'floaty' on the road.
Why would a reputable tyre place put 39 psi in my tyres?
On the way home, it was raining so I tested the stopping ability, so far, Im impressed, even though the ABS was kicking in on hard braking. Didnt get a chance to test the cornering.
Got home and got out of the car to notice a "pssssssssssssss" noise. I got out and walked around my car to find a leak in the rear right hand tyre. Couldn't find a where the air was coming out, but it was flat in 10 minutes. So I've jacked it up to take the weight off it and I will have a better look tomorrow.
Ive never had a flat trye
I drove some more today and noticed that the road noise is louder than the last tyres, and especially when cornering. So I popped into the servo and checked the pressure with one of those new digital tyre pumps. 39 psi !!! Maybe this is why the car seems a little 'floaty' on the road.
Why would a reputable tyre place put 39 psi in my tyres?
On the way home, it was raining so I tested the stopping ability, so far, Im impressed, even though the ABS was kicking in on hard braking. Didnt get a chance to test the cornering.
Got home and got out of the car to notice a "pssssssssssssss" noise. I got out and walked around my car to find a leak in the rear right hand tyre. Couldn't find a where the air was coming out, but it was flat in 10 minutes. So I've jacked it up to take the weight off it and I will have a better look tomorrow.
Ive never had a flat trye
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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It looks reasonable to me. You likely checked the pressure in the tyre after a trip. A hot tyre after a trip has a pressure increased by 3-4 psi compared to its cold state. The tyre shops routinely put a pressure of 36 psi into a passenger tyre. So all seems reasonable.Gannon wrote: So I popped into the servo and checked the pressure with one of those new digital tyre pumps. 39 psi !!! Maybe this is why the car seems a little 'floaty' on the road.
And I would think that the harder tyre (i.e. with more air pressure in it) would be less "floaty".
I have a '98 Forester. Does any1 know if you can get 16" rims for it?
re tyres... i will never again have bridgestone tyres. They're fine early in their life but then they go hard & lose all their grip![Mad :mad:](./images/smilies/icon_mad.gif)
I even had a minor accident few months back cos they had NO grip. needless to say 2 days & some research later, I had a great set of Yoki C-Drives.
They handle awesum in both wet & dry. Braking & cornering is superb. Have noticed some wear already tho but i absolutely agree that i want grip 1st, wear distant 2nd & couldnt care less bout comfort.
What good is comfort when you've just had an accident!
re tyres... i will never again have bridgestone tyres. They're fine early in their life but then they go hard & lose all their grip
![Mad :mad:](./images/smilies/icon_mad.gif)
I even had a minor accident few months back cos they had NO grip. needless to say 2 days & some research later, I had a great set of Yoki C-Drives.
They handle awesum in both wet & dry. Braking & cornering is superb. Have noticed some wear already tho but i absolutely agree that i want grip 1st, wear distant 2nd & couldnt care less bout comfort.
What good is comfort when you've just had an accident!
What is the model of the Bridgestone tyres you had ? Each brand has the expensive tyres which perform will, and they are likely to have the cheap "budget" tyres which do not perform well.nachaluva wrote:re tyres... i will never again have bridgestone tyres.
I presume you are talking about Bridgestone Desert Dueller H/T D684.
(And I do not know whether there are 16" rims which could fit your car.)
It says Bridgestone Dueller H/T 684.
Theyr very hard, dont grip in the wet very well. Not too bad in river crossings tho lol![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Didnt do too badly on steep, rutted, gravelly track but would like bit better.
Tyres on falcon were Bridgestone Grid II. Look good, nice directional tread, but again very hard with no grip on wet roads. Put some Yoki C Drives on, the difference was astounding!!!
Theyr very hard, dont grip in the wet very well. Not too bad in river crossings tho lol
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Didnt do too badly on steep, rutted, gravelly track but would like bit better.
Tyres on falcon were Bridgestone Grid II. Look good, nice directional tread, but again very hard with no grip on wet roads. Put some Yoki C Drives on, the difference was astounding!!!
- Gannon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4580
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Bowraville, Mid Nth Coast, NSW
But Yoki C's wont last anywhere as long either.
After a month of driving, Ive concluded that my EP100's weren't as good as the tyre guy said they would. They are noisy on almost any corner at moderate speed, not as good as the previous Turanza ER592's. I cannot really comment on the wet performance because we have only really had one wet day since I got them
Im kinda wishing that I went with the Turanza GR90's, maybe next time.
On a side note, I got 38,000kms out of my previous ER592's, mostly a daily commute of 20kms each way on potholed tar road
After a month of driving, Ive concluded that my EP100's weren't as good as the tyre guy said they would. They are noisy on almost any corner at moderate speed, not as good as the previous Turanza ER592's. I cannot really comment on the wet performance because we have only really had one wet day since I got them
Im kinda wishing that I went with the Turanza GR90's, maybe next time.
On a side note, I got 38,000kms out of my previous ER592's, mostly a daily commute of 20kms each way on potholed tar road
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Well, I am always on watch for the new releases of tyres. Bridgestone released the replacement of D694 called D697. It is available in my size, http://www.bridgestone.com.au/tyres/treads/d697.aspx
It is an All-Terrain tyre, and its tread pattern reminds me the Toyo Open Country H/T pattern.
To be honest, if I ever decide to get an A/T tyre, I would probably chose Dunlop Grandtrek AT3. Its thread looks very much like that of a Dunlop LM703 tyre, which is a passenger tyre. Or, I would get Yokohama A/T-S or Pirelli Scorpion ATR, which is a bit better performing on-road.
BF Goodrich were going to release the H-speed version of their Long Trail T/A Tour tyres which were T speed rated. I have not seen them yet.
It is an All-Terrain tyre, and its tread pattern reminds me the Toyo Open Country H/T pattern.
To be honest, if I ever decide to get an A/T tyre, I would probably chose Dunlop Grandtrek AT3. Its thread looks very much like that of a Dunlop LM703 tyre, which is a passenger tyre. Or, I would get Yokohama A/T-S or Pirelli Scorpion ATR, which is a bit better performing on-road.
BF Goodrich were going to release the H-speed version of their Long Trail T/A Tour tyres which were T speed rated. I have not seen them yet.
Finally, Yokohama has re-newed its line of Geolandar tyres, and is coming with a new "eco-friendly" ("BluEarth") tyres to the market. Yes, they will have tyres in my range 205/70R15. But the questions is: do I want an eco-friendly tyre ? Will I be happy with its grip ? Probably no.
Here are the initial news and a picture of the new tyre Yokohama Geolandar SUV G055,
http://www.yokohama-online.com/News-Ite ... 6ef89b9019
Here is a quantitative comparison of its performance with the Geolandar H/T-S tyre,
http://www.tirepath.com/category/tires- ... ama-tires/
(the picture is of the A/T-S tyre, though)
And here is the link to the 2012 summer catalog on Yokohama Polish website. They give a "roadmap" for the performance of the new tyre SUV as compared to that of the H/T-S, A/T-S, and M/T tyres, as well as of a few passenger tyres (see page 3). One can see that the SUV tyre has the same level of "on-road" as the passenger tyres. However, it is the most far-flung on the "comfort" scale as compared to the all abovementioned tyres. This is in opposite direction to "sportiness". I am not quite sure what that means.
http://www.yokohama-online.pl/pliki/yok ... nglish.pdf
P.S. I wrote an email to Yokohama Australia and received a reply that they had no plans of importing G055 into Australia. He said even if this happened the tyres would not arrive this year. Oh well, maybe we could get the gray import...
Here are the initial news and a picture of the new tyre Yokohama Geolandar SUV G055,
http://www.yokohama-online.com/News-Ite ... 6ef89b9019
Here is a quantitative comparison of its performance with the Geolandar H/T-S tyre,
http://www.tirepath.com/category/tires- ... ama-tires/
(the picture is of the A/T-S tyre, though)
And here is the link to the 2012 summer catalog on Yokohama Polish website. They give a "roadmap" for the performance of the new tyre SUV as compared to that of the H/T-S, A/T-S, and M/T tyres, as well as of a few passenger tyres (see page 3). One can see that the SUV tyre has the same level of "on-road" as the passenger tyres. However, it is the most far-flung on the "comfort" scale as compared to the all abovementioned tyres. This is in opposite direction to "sportiness". I am not quite sure what that means.
http://www.yokohama-online.pl/pliki/yok ... nglish.pdf
P.S. I wrote an email to Yokohama Australia and received a reply that they had no plans of importing G055 into Australia. He said even if this happened the tyres would not arrive this year. Oh well, maybe we could get the gray import...
More news about Michelin Energy XM2.
The tyre was tested by the Russian automotive magazine AutoRevyu on the Michelin's range in France, along with the other LRR tyres, http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=au
Their conclusion was that the XM2 tyre was average when braking on dry and wet bitumen. (Though, the resistance to acquaplaning was the best.) The capability to resist the compression when hitting the pavement was average as well. The tyre Michelin Energy Saver (available on the European markets since 4 years ago with a less LRR) was better in those instances.
The testers noted that the XM2 tyre was better than most of the other tyres at absorbing and dissipating the small bumps on the road. Thus, the shudders from the small bumps were not felt, and the ride was soft on the whole. (The Saver tyre was better at absorbing the larger bumps.) This was confirmed by the Michelin representatives, too. From the Russians point of view, this was actually a disadvantage for the tyre XM2.
Also, the authors said that the Michelin XM1 tyre was developed for the Chinese market and had a stronger carcass.
In their review, the authors trashed the tyres Bridgestone Ecopia EC100 for its low wet grip and average dry grip. They said Pirelli Cinturato P1 was the grippiest, but "gave up" the traction too sharply when cornering. They gave the 7th place to the XM2 tyre.
The whole review is available at http://translate.google.com.au/translat ... ml&act=url
The tyre was tested by the Russian automotive magazine AutoRevyu on the Michelin's range in France, along with the other LRR tyres, http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=au
Their conclusion was that the XM2 tyre was average when braking on dry and wet bitumen. (Though, the resistance to acquaplaning was the best.) The capability to resist the compression when hitting the pavement was average as well. The tyre Michelin Energy Saver (available on the European markets since 4 years ago with a less LRR) was better in those instances.
The testers noted that the XM2 tyre was better than most of the other tyres at absorbing and dissipating the small bumps on the road. Thus, the shudders from the small bumps were not felt, and the ride was soft on the whole. (The Saver tyre was better at absorbing the larger bumps.) This was confirmed by the Michelin representatives, too. From the Russians point of view, this was actually a disadvantage for the tyre XM2.
Also, the authors said that the Michelin XM1 tyre was developed for the Chinese market and had a stronger carcass.
In their review, the authors trashed the tyres Bridgestone Ecopia EC100 for its low wet grip and average dry grip. They said Pirelli Cinturato P1 was the grippiest, but "gave up" the traction too sharply when cornering. They gave the 7th place to the XM2 tyre.
The whole review is available at http://translate.google.com.au/translat ... ml&act=url
Who can say what about the SUV tyre "Goodyear EfficientGripSUV", http://www.goodyear.eu/home_en/tires/ef ... /index.jsp ? It was released in April 2012. Unfortunately, it looks to me like the LRR crap. The size of ineterst to me, 205/70R15 has a tyre with the speed index "T". I'd say I'll pass on it, because my rule of thumb is not to buy the tyres with the speed index less than "H" ("H" is OK).
I just had these put on my vw passat 235/45/17. They're more of a cruisy tyre, very quiet, very smooth but not as much grip as a true performance tyre like the Pirelli pzero neros I have on my liberty.Davidov wrote:I wouldn't look past the Toyo Teo plus personally. Came with my car and they grip like CRAZY and have pretty low weight and rolling resistance. And very quiet.
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my07 Outback
my13 Hyundai i45(shhhh)
my02 Gen3 Liberty limited ed.
previously
L-series wagon, LSD, EJ20turbo, 29in tyres, 'wanky wagon'
2000 gen3 outback, lifted, otherwise stock.
my13 Hyundai i45(shhhh)
my02 Gen3 Liberty limited ed.
previously
L-series wagon, LSD, EJ20turbo, 29in tyres, 'wanky wagon'
2000 gen3 outback, lifted, otherwise stock.