the bosch transformer coil will work fine Ive seen one under the bonnet of a wagon with an electronic dizzy. there was a thread on the board a while ago about coil resistance but for the life of me I couldn't find it
the early EA82 (carby model) dizzys use the internal igniter the later dizzys for the efi models use a different dizzy and external igniter
TOONGA
EDIS on EA81
No, I've got the EA81 version with the clip on cap and the ratchet looking trigger wheel.
Paid $50, which was the flat rate for dissys there. no matter what not doing a 200km round trip to take it back. Anyway they said they accept returns via post if it doesn't work out.
So, TOONGA from what you are saying I should be right to just use the electronic ignition coil I've got? I had a look a few minutes ago. Seems I was muddled between the Ford and Mitsu ones. The Magna one was a Diamond brand one which I understand was also the OE brand that Subaru used. It has a TIM hanging off the side but I shouldn't need that if the ignitor is internal to the dissy. Right? As an added bonus it has a coil bolt pattern bracket so I can bolt it neatly on to the engine. Neater than the GT40 which only has one bolt hole lining up on it's bracket.
Paid $50, which was the flat rate for dissys there. no matter what not doing a 200km round trip to take it back. Anyway they said they accept returns via post if it doesn't work out.
So, TOONGA from what you are saying I should be right to just use the electronic ignition coil I've got? I had a look a few minutes ago. Seems I was muddled between the Ford and Mitsu ones. The Magna one was a Diamond brand one which I understand was also the OE brand that Subaru used. It has a TIM hanging off the side but I shouldn't need that if the ignitor is internal to the dissy. Right? As an added bonus it has a coil bolt pattern bracket so I can bolt it neatly on to the engine. Neater than the GT40 which only has one bolt hole lining up on it's bracket.
-
El_Freddo
- Master Member
- Posts: 12502
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Bridgewater Vic
- Contact:
I'm sure you do on the one that's currently trying to ride on the EA81, but the second one you say this:RatCamper wrote:No, I've got the EA81 version with the clip on cap and the ratchet looking trigger wheel.
And simply from that description I can tell you that this dizzy is that of an EA82 MPFI (read: EFI) and won't work without the injection system behind it...RatCamper wrote:I wasn't sure about the modules because of the different distributor body design and screwed closed cap on the EA82.
I was simply letting you know why the second dizzy is so different to the EA81's unit. The carbie EA82's dizzy is not much different to the stock EA81's...
I hope this buries any confusion.
Cheers
Bennie
-
TOONGA
- Elder Member
- Posts: 5335
- Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 10:15 am
- Location: Australind closer to where they divided by zero
- Contact:
not sure what a TIM is as I worked mostly with pre 90's cars when I was in a workshop but I did find this thread by changing what I was searching for
showthread.php?t=17558&highlight=coil+resistance
it was the one I was thinking of and as long as the ohm values for the coils fall into the ones on that page it will be fine for the dizzy you have
TOONGA
showthread.php?t=17558&highlight=coil+resistance
it was the one I was thinking of and as long as the ohm values for the coils fall into the ones on that page it will be fine for the dizzy you have
TOONGA
Transistor igntion ...or is it ignitor module.
Thanks for the link.
I had a bit of a chance to have a look at the distributor. Might need a bit of TLC. Looks like the vac advance backing plate may be seized. No matter how hard I suck on the vac pot nothing happens. Usually something does. I gave the area a blast with inox and when I have a chance to get to it again I'll have a look. no matter what things should come apart easier.
Thanks for the link.
I had a bit of a chance to have a look at the distributor. Might need a bit of TLC. Looks like the vac advance backing plate may be seized. No matter how hard I suck on the vac pot nothing happens. Usually something does. I gave the area a blast with inox and when I have a chance to get to it again I'll have a look. no matter what things should come apart easier.
Bit of an update. after maybe an hour I tried the vac advance again. It was working alright. The plate wasn't stuck anymore. I guess a bit of familiarity had happened. Much relief had by me 
If I have a chance I might try installing it tomorrow. While I think of it, where would I get a shaft O ring? The fact that I removed the distributor easily says that it could be tighter and may leak.
If I could be arsewd I'd drag out the CRO and check the dissy. But I don't think I could be to be honest
If I have a chance I might try installing it tomorrow. While I think of it, where would I get a shaft O ring? The fact that I removed the distributor easily says that it could be tighter and may leak.
If I could be arsewd I'd drag out the CRO and check the dissy. But I don't think I could be to be honest
More on topic. I have one of those distributor hole cam sensors kicking around from a 6 cyl falcon. It was a leftover from an engine swap so odds are it works. What do they do? Is it a single pulse per revolution or something a bit more fancy like an encoded signal? I know that the timing isn't derived from them so it would be pretty rudimentary.
Yes I am still thinking about EDIS. Programmable ignition without the distributor is still very appealing to me.
Yes I am still thinking about EDIS. Programmable ignition without the distributor is still very appealing to me.
AUGH!!! The dissy is a non-starter 
literally. Didn't even sound like it was trying to fire. I know the timing was close enough for a start. Pretty much at #1TDC when the rotor is pointing to the "N" in "JAPAN" on the intake manifold the shaft is in the right place, and it'll start anywhere in the adjustment so half way is a good place. So yeah definitely the distributor. Can't get another one either.
literally. Didn't even sound like it was trying to fire. I know the timing was close enough for a start. Pretty much at #1TDC when the rotor is pointing to the "N" in "JAPAN" on the intake manifold the shaft is in the right place, and it'll start anywhere in the adjustment so half way is a good place. So yeah definitely the distributor. Can't get another one either. It had to be the right way. Rotor pointing the same way both times. Didn't turn the motor. Cap went on the same way. Didn't remove leads from cap. besides I just dropped the original distributor back in a few minutes ago and it fired right up without issue.
Can't speak for the Subies but I've found when it's 180 out it kind of farts a little. There was nothing.
Can't speak for the Subies but I've found when it's 180 out it kind of farts a little. There was nothing.
I'm holding off until after the weekend to send the distributor off. Sure it's no prize pig. Its shaft has a tiny bit of play and the vac diaphragm is a bit leaky, but before I boxed it I tried it one last time. this time a standalone test which theoretically should have been identical to my in engine test. I connected the distributor to the transformer coil. shoved a spark plug lead into the HT hole of the coil and connected an "old" (new but a little fouled) spark plug to the other end. The plug was jammed between the vac advance pot and the dist body so it had an earth. Then I just grabbed my handy little alligator leads and connected power to coil + and earth to the dist body and gave it a spin. I saw sparks consistently. Or at least I saw signs of them. I couldn't see the arc for some reason but there was certainly tiny little bright white flashes on the center electrode.
I'm guessing these things either work or they don't. So more investigations will happen over the weekend.
I'm guessing these things either work or they don't. So more investigations will happen over the weekend.
-
TOONGA
- Elder Member
- Posts: 5335
- Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 10:15 am
- Location: Australind closer to where they divided by zero
- Contact:
that's a good sign, now you need to try this test again with an earth lead from the dizzy body to the engine. if you get a bigger spark great, if the spark disappears then it is and earth leak in the dizzy.
Check where the 2 wires go into the dizzy, the plastic insulation has a way of cracking at the point where it meets the rubber shroud that holds the wires in the dizzy. I've had one fail for that reason.
I'm sure some one can tell you how to test the module ) Jonno?(
TOONGA
Check where the 2 wires go into the dizzy, the plastic insulation has a way of cracking at the point where it meets the rubber shroud that holds the wires in the dizzy. I've had one fail for that reason.
I'm sure some one can tell you how to test the module ) Jonno?(
TOONGA
Had another go of a disembodied test this arvo. This time around there was a very visible healthy blue spark. I used a pair of glasses to achieve that affect. night and day 
Tomorrow I'll try installing it again with the bare minimum wires like the first time. If it's no good I'll add an earth wire to the body of the distributor. If it's still no good then I'll just have to think extra hard about it. If it works alright, can I pinch the vac pot off the mechanical distributor? Looks like I can, but how do I deal with the pin on that actuating rod?
Tomorrow I'll try installing it again with the bare minimum wires like the first time. If it's no good I'll add an earth wire to the body of the distributor. If it's still no good then I'll just have to think extra hard about it. If it works alright, can I pinch the vac pot off the mechanical distributor? Looks like I can, but how do I deal with the pin on that actuating rod?
-
discopotato03
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:29 am
- Location: Sydney
Need to define the term distributor here as the name itself has absolutely nothing to do with whats under the rotor button and cap . To distribute means to connect the coils HT lead to the relivant spark plug lead in a mechanical way ie carbon contact to rotor tip to cap poles etc .
The "distributor" in a late EA82T engine is also a crank angle sensor and btw dizzys turn at half crank speed , easy when driven by a camshaft that also turns at half crank revs/speed .
A distributor is not the most delux system to have but along with a single coil and 5 HT leads its simple and effective enough .
Its easy to carry a complete distributor/coil/leads/plugs . Aside from power and earth what else is there to fail ?
Once you go down the road of crank and cam angle sensors , along with computers and individual coils it gets involved expensive and very expensive to carry a spare everything .
For simplicity's sake if you really want a programmable system I'd base it around the 4 ECU plugs EA82 CAS type dizzy because they are a genuine part and should fit easily .
A true distributorless ignition system will not give an EA81 huge balls - or make anything simple . The real truth is that if you want better you need a more modern engine and they have these technical "brilliances" std - and have had for a long time .
For what an EA81s worth I think an electronic conversion of the std distributor is as far as its practicle to go . If you maintain these systems properly they will be reliable and as mentioned carrying spares is easy .
The biggie , FAULT finding by the side of the road is pretty straightforward and this can be worth MUCH more that the high tech system if it fails out around BF Idaho .
Umm , also having several maps sounds nice but plugging in the trusty lap top gets boring after a while .
Changing ignition timing alone ALSO changes fuel mixtures because combustion characteristics change potentially burning more or less of the available fuel . The best case scenerio is to be able to change both for the best single outcome . Current engine management systems have the ability to self learn and make minor alterations to their look up tables - and store these changes until run dead flat or reset . This probably has more to do with differences in fuel quality and octane but helps them to run within legislated emissions standards over time .
I assume that Ford sensor has one pickup to signal no1 piston at top dead center and probably a cam angle sensor so that the computer can tell if no1s rising on the compression or exhaust stroke .
The optical system used in the late EFI EA82s is the one Nissan have used for a long time in either distributors ie RB30E and FJ20 or in cam angle sensors ie CA18 RB20/25/26 . As long as the photo diodes work it is a very simple system that tells the computer where the crank and pistons are so that it can signal an ignitor (high speed switch) to charge and dump the coil/s fields .
With engine power/capacity here in NSW they are supposed to now work off engine output because capacity is not a good indicator of an engines performance potential .
Sadly they stupidly still look at horsepower/Kw and not torque potential . Engines turn a bit faster generally than they did in the EA81 development era and torque times revs = Hp/Kw . Engines that don't rev don't make the Kw numbers which is why diesel commercials on paper have low power ratings . Hands up those that have trouble outrunning some diesel vehicles .
A .
The "distributor" in a late EA82T engine is also a crank angle sensor and btw dizzys turn at half crank speed , easy when driven by a camshaft that also turns at half crank revs/speed .
A distributor is not the most delux system to have but along with a single coil and 5 HT leads its simple and effective enough .
Its easy to carry a complete distributor/coil/leads/plugs . Aside from power and earth what else is there to fail ?
Once you go down the road of crank and cam angle sensors , along with computers and individual coils it gets involved expensive and very expensive to carry a spare everything .
For simplicity's sake if you really want a programmable system I'd base it around the 4 ECU plugs EA82 CAS type dizzy because they are a genuine part and should fit easily .
A true distributorless ignition system will not give an EA81 huge balls - or make anything simple . The real truth is that if you want better you need a more modern engine and they have these technical "brilliances" std - and have had for a long time .
For what an EA81s worth I think an electronic conversion of the std distributor is as far as its practicle to go . If you maintain these systems properly they will be reliable and as mentioned carrying spares is easy .
The biggie , FAULT finding by the side of the road is pretty straightforward and this can be worth MUCH more that the high tech system if it fails out around BF Idaho .
Umm , also having several maps sounds nice but plugging in the trusty lap top gets boring after a while .
Changing ignition timing alone ALSO changes fuel mixtures because combustion characteristics change potentially burning more or less of the available fuel . The best case scenerio is to be able to change both for the best single outcome . Current engine management systems have the ability to self learn and make minor alterations to their look up tables - and store these changes until run dead flat or reset . This probably has more to do with differences in fuel quality and octane but helps them to run within legislated emissions standards over time .
I assume that Ford sensor has one pickup to signal no1 piston at top dead center and probably a cam angle sensor so that the computer can tell if no1s rising on the compression or exhaust stroke .
The optical system used in the late EFI EA82s is the one Nissan have used for a long time in either distributors ie RB30E and FJ20 or in cam angle sensors ie CA18 RB20/25/26 . As long as the photo diodes work it is a very simple system that tells the computer where the crank and pistons are so that it can signal an ignitor (high speed switch) to charge and dump the coil/s fields .
With engine power/capacity here in NSW they are supposed to now work off engine output because capacity is not a good indicator of an engines performance potential .
Sadly they stupidly still look at horsepower/Kw and not torque potential . Engines turn a bit faster generally than they did in the EA81 development era and torque times revs = Hp/Kw . Engines that don't rev don't make the Kw numbers which is why diesel commercials on paper have low power ratings . Hands up those that have trouble outrunning some diesel vehicles .
A .
Thanks for the write up discopotato03. It was very interesting.
Your mention at the end of capacity vs. output regarding legislation was actually the exact reason I chose the EA81. Well art of it anyway. It slips in bellow the 15% power increase for the largest engine available for the model, which was a 2.0L FI. It's also roughly the same weight give or take a couple of kg. Packaging is brilliant. The motor is so tiny I could fit two of them in the engine bay. I also didn't really have to modify anything to fit it so I can get in through a tiny, twisty path in the VSI guidelines. I'll nip any arguments in the bud right off here. I confirmed it more than once with the RTA vehicle mods people.
Everything through sheer luck falls in a sweet spot, including the age of my VW (remember it's a conversion), the age and specs of the EA81, the specs of the OE VW motors of that time and what I had to do to fit it which was: some screws for the radiator, enlarging a hole a little in a crossmember which had far larger holes in it from factory to fit a hose through. If they bitch about that I can gusset it and that also falls under non engineer mods. It was also pointed out to me that insurance may be difficult. In honesty the vehicle is pretty worthless so comprehensive is pointless so I don't care.
Back to EDIS.
Such a shame. I would still very much like to tr something like that. But you are right that without some means of changing the A/F mix it is semi-pointless. Unfortunately fuel injection does fall under engineer approved mods so I won't be doing that. Although... FI was available in my bus' year but not standard in Aus. Hm... I was considering building something based of an old Falcon TBI unit, or whatever they call it. CPI?
None of this matters right now unless I can figure out why the hell the bitch won't fire anymore! I'm going to get / order a new dissy cap today. As far as I can tell it's the only wild card left. I have more than one of everything else and have tried every combination. Without using the cap, everything bench tests fine, besides mechanical deficiencies that is, like the electronic dissy's vac pot and my old mech. dissy squeaking like a rusty hinge when I turn it. Believe it or not its bushes don't seem worn at all and there is no slop in the shaft.
Your mention at the end of capacity vs. output regarding legislation was actually the exact reason I chose the EA81. Well art of it anyway. It slips in bellow the 15% power increase for the largest engine available for the model, which was a 2.0L FI. It's also roughly the same weight give or take a couple of kg. Packaging is brilliant. The motor is so tiny I could fit two of them in the engine bay. I also didn't really have to modify anything to fit it so I can get in through a tiny, twisty path in the VSI guidelines. I'll nip any arguments in the bud right off here. I confirmed it more than once with the RTA vehicle mods people.
Everything through sheer luck falls in a sweet spot, including the age of my VW (remember it's a conversion), the age and specs of the EA81, the specs of the OE VW motors of that time and what I had to do to fit it which was: some screws for the radiator, enlarging a hole a little in a crossmember which had far larger holes in it from factory to fit a hose through. If they bitch about that I can gusset it and that also falls under non engineer mods. It was also pointed out to me that insurance may be difficult. In honesty the vehicle is pretty worthless so comprehensive is pointless so I don't care.
Back to EDIS.
Such a shame. I would still very much like to tr something like that. But you are right that without some means of changing the A/F mix it is semi-pointless. Unfortunately fuel injection does fall under engineer approved mods so I won't be doing that. Although... FI was available in my bus' year but not standard in Aus. Hm... I was considering building something based of an old Falcon TBI unit, or whatever they call it. CPI?
None of this matters right now unless I can figure out why the hell the bitch won't fire anymore! I'm going to get / order a new dissy cap today. As far as I can tell it's the only wild card left. I have more than one of everything else and have tried every combination. Without using the cap, everything bench tests fine, besides mechanical deficiencies that is, like the electronic dissy's vac pot and my old mech. dissy squeaking like a rusty hinge when I turn it. Believe it or not its bushes don't seem worn at all and there is no slop in the shaft.
-
Tweety
- General Member
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
- Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria
I'm a real novice ratcamper but I did scratch my head for days once on an ignition. Turned out to be the button above the rotor button in the cap. It had destroyed itself.
Anyhow...in case its as simple as that and often problems like this have simple remedies.
Bit like when I rebuild a complex Lotus engine. backfired for days until I rang my mechanic mate. He told me to swap 4th and 1st spark leads. presto.
good luck
Anyhow...in case its as simple as that and often problems like this have simple remedies.
Bit like when I rebuild a complex Lotus engine. backfired for days until I rang my mechanic mate. He told me to swap 4th and 1st spark leads. presto.
good luck
I've made damn sure not to do anything like mess up the leads. I had no reason to unplug them so I haven't. It's also physically impossible for me to put the cap on the wrong way because of that.Tweety wrote:I'm a real novice ratcamper but I did scratch my head for days once on an ignition. Turned out to be the button above the rotor button in the cap. It had destroyed itself.
Anyhow...in case its as simple as that and often problems like this have simple remedies.
Bit like when I rebuild a complex Lotus engine. backfired for days until I rang my mechanic mate. He told me to swap 4th and 1st spark leads. presto.
good luck
Sorry for being a pedant, but the thing that rotates and distributes the spark to the correct cylinder is the rotor. The bit of the cap that conducts the electricity from the coil to the rotor is the rotor button. And while the rotor button is still there I strongly suspect it. It is very worn and to be honest I don't know if anything besides the spring is touching it in the cap.
I'm going to dig out another distributor cap for something to use as a placeholder so I can remove the subie cap and do a bench test with it without fear of messing up the order. If I get a spark from whatever one I deem to be the one to have a plug attached to I'll be close to out of options. The only thing left besides that is to re-check that the distributor is pointing the right way. Although like I said it ran then it didn't, but I'll check anyway in case something else caused the no start and I messed up after that.
Fuel is good. I dumped another 10L in to be sure. The facet pump is cheerily rattling away like a maniac etc.
Don't remember if I said, but I also tried direct wiring to the battery with + to coil + and - to the distributor body. No difference. Tried 3 different coils and a couple of different rotors not that they would make a difference.
Everything points to the cap. I ordered another one but it'll be 2-3 days before it arrives as the mechanic (Repco agent. They get their stuff from a Repco in another town who doesn't have the cap either). So I might as well exhaust all possibilities while I wait.
A note on EDIS. Some of the things that do appeal to me with it is that it could have a start / under rev advance, and that the power can get to the spark plugs without having to do one jump beforehand. I'm not after massive power. But I would like the fuel to have a really good burn. That is also why when Steptoe I think it was said they had been running a transformer type coil without issue I was quite happy. Unless these are special somehow they usually operate at a higher secondary voltage than standard coils.
When I tried that setup it ran really well, briefly until I mounted the coil properly then nothing worked. I'm hoping it was just a coincidence that the cap kicked it. As I said the bench test of both distributors is still fine when just used to drive the coil. Spark is spark. Especially a fat blue/purple spark.
-
TOONGA
- Elder Member
- Posts: 5335
- Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 10:15 am
- Location: Australind closer to where they divided by zero
- Contact:
can you try to mount the coil so it isn't earthed. a big ask I know but you may find that this is the problem. which goes back to a power leak of either posititve or negative voltage.RatCamper wrote: When I tried that setup it ran really well, briefly until I mounted the coil properly then nothing worked. I'm hoping it was just a coincidence that the cap kicked it. As I said the bench test of both distributors is still fine when just used to drive the coil. Spark is spark. Especially a fat blue/purple spark.
TOONGA
Definitely worth a try.TOONGA wrote:can you try to mount the coil so it isn't earthed. a big ask I know but you may find that this is the problem. which goes back to a power leak of either posititve or negative voltage.
TOONGA
I just came back in from doing another sequence of pointless tests.
I tried the points distributor with the crappy cap, the coil and a spark plug with lead plugged into one of the cap holes. It worked.
I put the points distributor back in and connected it back up to the GT40 and it started. It wants to rev to the moon when I rotate the distributor one way and gets slow and grumpy the other way so I'm pretty sure I haven't skipped a tooth.
Also I checked the electronic one again bench test. it worked, again. I've checked and it can drive a GT40, which isn't earthed but it just doesn't want to in vehicle, or so it seems. I'll have to try electronic dist with electronic coil installed again. Only this time with the coil suspended or something so it can't earth. I'm also sure I have it the polarity right because I cross checked it against the physical wiring and a schematic of the mitsu I pulled it from.