air conditioning modifications

rob83ke70 · Post by **rob83ke70** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:41 pm

My L series with an ea82 uses around 9.0 litres per 100km without the ac turned on and has a reasonable amount of power. With the ac turned on my fuel consumption goes to 13-14litres per 100km (this is all on the highway) and its gutless as. it has trouble starting when the ac is turned on and cranks noticably slower (it has an ok battery)

as far as I know it has an original charge of r12 ac gas and original receiver dryer fitted, all untouched. would I gain any performance by fitting a new receiver dryer? would putting hychill (hydrocarbon ac gas) in instead of r12 give me more power with the ac on as it has lower head pressures and therefore takes less work on the compressor to run? what about fitting an ac compressor off an ej engine, or something similar?

I'm told the difference in fuel consumption ac on versus ac off in a ej25 forester is around half a litre per 100km... I'm just trying to make my car a smidge more economical to run with the ac turned on...

Robert.

Busdriver · Post by **Busdriver** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:52 pm

Same same with mine, have not measured actual fuel consumption difference between A/C on and off but mine wont start with air on, new battery too and it feels like the handbrake is on when it is turned on on the highway.
Mine has R134a gas, and I thought that this was just the way they are?
You might have something with the alternative compressor but, my other 1/2 has a 1.4 litre late model ford shopping trolley and her air hardly even makes any difference when it is cycling between on and off on the highway.
Anybody know of a later/rotary type compressor that can be made to fit an ea82 relative easy? Or maybe another refrigerant gas will help?

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:27 am

rob83ke70 - Your engine might just not have enough ooooomph to run the A/C how you would like. It is actually illegal to have R12 still in service in automotive applications so I wouldn't be broadcasting the fact to much that you still have it in a serviceable unit. My advice to you would be that you get your A/C serviced, a new Receiver Dryer is a legal requirement if it is more than 12 months old I think, filled with R134a gas and give that a go but don't expect miracles cause the EA82 is still only a modified EA81.

rob83ke70 & Busdriver - The newer style compressors are much "friendlier" to your engine with regards to power and fuel consumption but are not going to help an old style engine much either.

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:44 pm

Surely it's not illegal to have R12 in your car if it's always been there. I'm pretty sure it's just illegal for an airconditioner service company to re-gas a car with R12.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:50 pm

AndrewT wrote:Surely it's not illegal to have R12 in your car if it's always been there. I'm pretty sure it's just illegal for an airconditioner service company to re-gas a car with R12.

Air conditioners are supposed to be serviced every 12 months. R134a has been available since about 1987 or 1988 so we are talking about 21 years of not being serviced. The lack of maintenance in itself says a lot and as far as the law is concerned ignorance is not a defense.

Xtreme_RX · Post by **Xtreme_RX** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:15 pm

In Queensland you can still get R12 'Mix' -> 90% of R12 A/C Compressors fail because of R143A.

The Hychill is a fantastic gas. Works very well in the old R12 Systems.....

Busdriver · Post by **Busdriver** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:19 pm

Where is it written that a/c has to be serviced every 12 months?
If it has not leaked out and is still working ok who says you have to get it replaced? also where is it written that a reciever/drier has to be replaced every 12 months? I would like to see a link please! I got a license to do this back in 88 and the only thing they stressed about was not releasing it into the atmosphere, but what about all the cars at the wreckers? Back then they were releasing it left,right and centre but no one made them get a license.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:17 am

Busdriver wrote:Where is it written that a/c has to be serviced every 12 months?
If it has not leaked out and is still working ok who says you have to get it replaced? also where is it written that a reciever/drier has to be replaced every 12 months? I would like to see a link please! I got a license to do this back in 88 and the only thing they stressed about was not releasing it into the atmosphere, but what about all the cars at the wreckers? Back then they were releasing it left,right and centre but no one made them get a license.

Call the MVRIA and get the info, if your a licensed A/C mechanic you should know this.

Replacing Receiver/Dryers is par for the course, they lose effectiveness after a certain period of time 12 months is the recommended time, note I said recommended not legislated.

If you have a problem with the wreckers back in 1988 ask them about it not me. I myself wouldn't hold a grudge that long but hey its a free world.

rob83ke70 · Post by **rob83ke70** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:13 am

I was one of the last apprentices to do air conditioning as part of the certificate III in light vehicle automotive, its now a separate course.

I was not told anything about having to service or replace anything after 12 months. As long as it doesn't leak its gas, and it works ok, there is no need to touch it. R134a systems have a tendency to lose their gas after about 5 years... I think its a bit funny how my r12 system still is original and working.

If the system was opened for more than I think about 10 minutes then the receiver dryer needs replacing. If the compressor fails, then it needs flushing and receiver dryer needs replacing. You need to use PAG oil in r134a systems, mineral oil in r12 systems and ester oil in either.

I haven't touched air conditioning since, the place I work at now does not do any air conditioning repairs or work. The place I used to work at had minimum if any qualifications for most of the people there to work on ac systems, and I did catch an apprentice letting excess gas out of the recovery bottle into the atmosphere once because it was full.... now THAT is disgusting.

R134a systems run a much much higher pressure than r12 systems. Hychill runs a low pressure like r12 systems, I would be happy to replace the r12 with hychill for that reason but I would not want to use r134a in an r12 system. You only need about a third of the hychill gas as what you need of r134a when you regas a system, I did do a few of them back when I worked at the other place.

I was under the impression that it is illegal for a place to obtain r12 gas, but if they still have it, then they can use it. There is nothing wrong with running r12 in a car as long as you don't release it to the atmosphere. I would think that it is not considered a good practise for you to regas an r12 system, you would probably use hychill.

Everything has probably changed since I did the course though and I don't currently work on ac systems so I really wouldn't know. I can't imagine it being illegal to have a working r12 system, its never been touched since the car was new (the car has been serviced all its life at my old work).

I think that I may have a chat to a bloke around the corner from my work that does ac systems, and get him to replace the receiver dryer and regas the system with hychill, and we will see how that works.

I'm a bit of a greenie as far as car loving bogans go, and I don't like the idea of having an ozone depleting gas (r12) in my car, I would rather have it taken out safely and disposed of in an environmentally friendly way, I have no problems running hychill (propane and butane mix) in my ac system, but I am not running r134a in my old r12 system.

I would be very happy if i get some sort of improvement out of the ac system in terms of power and fuel economy, i'm not looking for it to be as good as a new car, but I would love it to improve. My ea82 engine is actually running really really sweet for something that old

The old fella i bought the car off wouldn't recognise it anymore...

Robert.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:38 am

Robert, a couple of points.

I applaud you on your "Greenyness", to many people still stick to the older ways of not caring about the environment.

Hychill is also probably going to be phased out because of its dangerous nature. A/Cs leak eventually its a fact, even the old R12 systems leak so your one of the lucky ones. Australia signed the Kyoto agreement when Captain Kev become PM, Kyoto phases out all Hydrocarbon based liquids and gases that aren't necessary to the engine. HyChill (or HC-R12 I think is its chemical name) is Hydrocarbon which I know you know.

My qualifications are under the old scheme. I'm not a "Technician" (the new designation), I'm a mechanic (the old designation). I haven't got a Certificate 1,2,3, or 4 (which is the Australian Standards course and each qualification is an extra unit on top of the basic TAFE apprenticeship course) I have the old Automotive Certificate which covered everything.

Xtreme_RX · Post by **Xtreme_RX** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:28 pm

Storm wrote:Robert, a couple of points.

I applaud you on your "Greenyness", to many people still stick to the older ways of not caring about the environment.

Hychill is also probably going to be phased out because of its dangerous nature. HyChill (or HC-R12 I think is its chemical name) is Hydrocarbon which I know you know.

HyChill Minus 30 is a direct replacement for R134a & work incredibly well in R12 systems.

HyChill Minus 30 is GECA Certified -> http://www.geca.org.au/hychill.htm

It not dangerous at all. It a preferred A/C refrigerant my most of the mining industry (Leightons, Thomas & Coffey) use it in there mine site vehicles.....

Toyota are using it form factory for a few of there cars.

In Europe it is going to become illegal to use R134A in any application..... The USA is on the same track........

(Not assoiated with HyChill in any way - just its a cheap good product that works!)

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:25 pm

Some links for you to read
http://www.vasa.org.au/

http://www.allpar.com/eek/ac.html

http://www.id-usa.com/how_to_faqs_retrofitting.asp

R12 cannot be used in the USA in a new car and it cannot be put in an R134a system.

Europe is phasing it out but not for R12 but for R152a and simple Carbon Dioxide gases.

Unfortunately here in Australia we are pretty well stuck with R134a unless you want to take the chance that our PM legislates against A/C gases like HyChil which he has signed an agreement saying he will.

Xtreme_RX · Post by **Xtreme_RX** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:34 pm

I don't think you totally understand what HyChill Minus 30 is.

It is drawn from the atmosphere. NOT manufactured.
It's also NON Ozone depleting.

HyChill & Refrigerant gasses like it ARE the future.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:33 am

Xtreme_RX wrote:I don't think you totally understand what HyChill Minus 30 is.

Thats a little condescending.

I know what it is, I have read through the GECA site, I have also read through HyChill's site. HyChill also contradicts itself on a pdf on its own site stating R134a is among a group of products that are Ozone depleting yet on another pdf state it isn't Ozone Depeleting. R12, which HyChill correctly state, cannot be imported and hasn't been allowed to be imported for over 10 years.

Lets discuss HydroCarbons. Hydrocarbon is unburnt fuel. They are good when naturally occurring but when processed, and HyChill has to be processed to make it form a refrigerant liquid when it was originally an atmospheric gas, there are environmental concerns. Since 1973 ADRs have attempted to control HydroCarbons in fuel systems because they are not environmentally friendly gasses. One of the big things in the public campaign when Unleaded and Catalytic Convertor were introduced was that only water and Carbon gas was supposed to come out the tailpipe. We know that wasn't true and that HydroCarbons are still being produced, admittedly in smaller amounts because of more efficient engine management systems, and that HydroCarbons are still harmful to the environment when they are not in their natural state.

Xtreme_RX wrote:It is drawn from the atmosphere. NOT manufactured.
It's also NON Ozone depleting.

So you are saying there are NO processes involved at all that are harmful to the environment? I noticed the link you provided only mentions GECA testing on the facility done in the 90s. You do know there is more to environmental care than the Ozone Layer. Processed Hydrocarbons are dangerous, HyChill even has a a pdf stating that along with everything you need to do to limit the danger of the product. What are you advocating we swap to? a processed substance that even the manufacturer admits is explosive? a processed substance that there is no way they can possibly know the detrimental effects it can have on the atmosphere if it is released. HydroCarbons occur naturally but not in such concentrations and not artificially combined to create a refrigerant.

Xtreme_RX wrote:HyChill & Refrigerant gasses like it ARE the future.

Not according to our PMs signing of the Kyoto protocol. You know Australians were told the exact same thing about R134a, it's the way of the future, wow. Not to mention DDT and a few other things. When places like Europe, who have a much better manufacturing ability than we do, aren't using it, America obviously isn't moving towards it, and the Australian manufacturer is talking about GECA testing done about 10 years ago to prove how good it is, I think there is something about it that isn't proof that its the way of the future.

rob83ke70 · Post by **rob83ke70** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:58 am

ok, your r134a system holds 600grams tops of gas. Not sure about older r12 systems. you put a third of the weight of hychill hydrocarbons into an r134a system to charge it. thats 200 grams of gas tops. much lower pressures as well. 200 grams of propane/butane mix, if it leaks into your car, how much air does it mix with? what ratio does it need to be to become explosive? what ratio does it need to be for it to burn?

I was told when I did the a/c course that it will not form a rich enough mixture to burn let alone explode.

I don't think its any more dangerous than handling lpg for your bbq.

and r134a gas is a greenhouse gas the same as hychill. Better than an ozone depleting gas, such as r12, but still not good.

I really hope they can develop something that is neither greenhouse gas nor ozone depleting gas, but I think whatever they do it will still be bad for the environment in one way or another. Cars in general are bad for the environment in one way or another and I don't think there is anything that we can really do about it... human beings are bad for the environment...

If hychill isn't available, I would rather use straight lpg from my bbq to gas my ac system instead of r134a. Sounds bodgy but i've seen it done and it works disturbingly well.

but I hope it won't come to that.

Robert.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:45 am

no one has mentioned FR12 yet ?

I know someone who has tried straight LPG and claims it runs verrry cold and needs to turn it off at times.It is thicker than other refrigerants and tends not to leak as easily/

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:25 am

Robert, look at the links I posted and the information they have in it. The answer to your question about how much gas you need to let out for an explosion is answered because it has been done.

My issue with things other than R134a is their dangerous nature and even though the A/C industry is extremely heavily regulated, people from the general public play around to save a few $. It's human nature to do so. I'd much prefer to not be in a car accident but if I was I would hope its with a car with R134a or even R12 for that matter than a HydroCarbon mix.

I'm an LPG mechanic. LPG is stored at extremely high pressures to make it a liquid, A/C systems cycle the gas form a liquid to gas state regularly. Propane runs at higher pressures than Butane so I would hope anyone running an A/C system would run a higher % of Butane than Propane. I haven't seen anyone use LPG mix for their A/C but I have heard of its efficiency when used in this manner. I know from personal experience running my V8 on LPG helps to keep it cooler simply through the cooling effect of the LPG changing state from a liquid to a gas in the convertor.

Subafury · Post by **Subafury** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:49 pm

some nice reading on the gasses and opinions up there.
on the topic, how much does it cost to get a car regassed these days?

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:39 pm

Subafury wrote:some nice reading on the gasses and opinions up there.
on the topic, how much does it cost to get a car regassed these days?

You can't just get it regassed, and if any mechanic say he'll do it he is breaking the law. The workshop I am currently at doesn't do A/Cs but we are looking into it for future market growth. Anyway to answer your question I have seen quotes ranging from $50 - $150. Much of the variation depends on the cost of the Receiver/Dryer, cost of the Gas (gas prices vary around the country), difficulty of replacing the R/D (must be done when the A/C is serviced), and checking for and rectifying leaks.

rob83ke70 · Post by **rob83ke70** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:36 pm

I've read those links. I would agree that it poses a risk if the technician is not aware of it being in the ac system. I also would like to point out in the first (or one of the first) mentions of an accident in the list, the owner of the vehicle had gassed his ac system OUT OF A BBQ BOTTLE!!! did they put the right amount of ac gas in? how do they weigh it? how dumb of an idea is that? and if it was working correctly, why was it at a mechanic's getting it worked on?

I'm not a fan of r134a in an r12 system, and I'm not sure that will ever change. I'm not too sure I like the idea of hychill either though. what is fr12 refrigerant?

oh, here am I thinking that the r134a or r12 gas was going to be recovered correctly before hychill was fitted!! thats how I would do it anyway.

I'm still a little undecided as to the explosiveness of the mix in the cabin, when that fella blew himself up didn't he spray hydrocarbons out of an aerosol into the cabin before lighting a match? if a leak developed in your evaporator, it would a) smell strange b) pool at the bottom of the car, not be dispersed finely into the air inside the cabin mixed so as to form an explosive mixture.

I'm totally undecided as to what i'm going to do with my ac system now.

I really think that releasing any ac gas no matter what it is to the atmosphere is wrong. same as dumping waste oil, spilling petrol, driving cars that are in a poor state of tune, driving v8's as a commuter car, littering, demolishing natural areas for development and many other things like that. When I worked on ac systems I recovered everything properly, and I expected everyone else to do the same.

Robert.

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