Biography of an EA82T Hi-Rise Intake

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:55 am

Yes , ears burning , just measured a 3 plug and 4 plug L TB and the XT4 Spider one . All the same at 50mm .

I'm not 100% sure but many Nissan TBs look like same or similar to Spider plenum bolt pattern .

A .

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:27 pm

Long day today but Ellies Spider manifold conversion is 85% complete .

Its a lot of work in a series 1 or 85/86 RX Turbo because so many detail things are different between 3 plug and 4 plug systems , let alone 4 plug Vortex gear .

The L MPFI stuff comes apart easily enough but mine was pretty messy because the outer manifold to head bolts were loose and had been leaking coolant . Probably losing a bit of boost pressure as well .

Spider manifolds fight you every step of the way because they have to be built up in layers on the engine as in first the injector stub pipes , then the water log , then the fuel rails injectors etc , and finally the top or plenum section .
As I'd mentioned mine has a flange adapter plate welded to it to accept an L MPFI throttlebody and aside from altering the cable quadrants orientation its fitted up pretty well .
It really helps to have a good complete set of plumbing ie the plastic tube that joints up all the head breathers PCV , cold start bypass valve etc . Having the Vortex turbo to TB duct saves making one too .
Just a note on that little air valve rat , at a glance it takes an old style two wire injector plug but on closer inspection its guide slot is offset rather than central like most early injector plugs . MPFI L's with that hateful air bypass on top of the water thermostat housing use the std plug where native Spider looms have the offset setup like early Turbo Rotary Mazda injectors do .
The ECUs water temp sensor is in the back near side on a Spider instead of the front offside so the L engine loom needs to be extended to reach it .

Initially my FPR and distributor will get manifold vac/pressure from non std locations as will the boost light and overboost pressure switches .

Will have to play around with the EGR vac tubes and solenoid , note that the Spiders riser pipe from the NS head to the EGR valve is longer than the L one .
Also will have to consult the various manuals to get the fuel tank breather and charcol canister working as intended .
Temporarily the TB water plumbing is bypassed as its tubes were badly rusted and suspect . I think we're going to have to drill and tap them for screw in barb fittings . The cable quadrant side will have to be a right angle one similar to the spiders fitting not to hit anything .

Really the only things I didn't have with the car today were the XT4 pitch stoper brackets ( GRRRRR on spare gearbox I hope) and the multi tube gadget that fits on top of the plain style thermostat housing .
Fingers crossed the short XT4 pitch stopper fits an L series with the correct bracket .

I really hope daddy long legs makes a difference because the effort to get it all in and working is considerable .

Should be making noises tomorrow morning , cheers A .

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:30 pm

...what did you do about the 'not beeing able to see the timing marks afterwards' issue? Did you use the water pump plate off a vortex, do you have a spare?

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 pm

This thread is worthless without pictures!!!

Good write-up disco. I too would like to spider my intake, but only if the gains are worthwhile.

My other issue would be lining it up with my current WAIC set-up

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:06 am

I'll get back in the PM , I reckon I'll be able to see with a mirror the timing marks on the flywheel . Don't want to put front pulley pointer on old engine if possible .

Graveyard shift , cheers A .

PS Vortex pitch snubber brackets were on spare gearbox !

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:29 pm

There are pics on the web of these manifolds complete and in pieces .

My car is running again but its idle is not as good as I'd like and we're looking hard for air leaks .
Ive only had it round the block and its too soon to tell if it feels any different aside from a heavier pedal return spring load and higher coolant temp - they fitted a 180 thermostat where I use a 170 .

EGR doesn't work yet because the L type riser pipe won't screw out of the OS head and the spider valve is higher up needing a longer riser pipe .

Sadly I've gone about this conversion the wrong way because I thought it could be done in one day . Had I known otherwise we'd have done the engine change at the same time and assembled the 4 layer manifold on the next engine .
I'm hoping like all hell that we can remove the complete assembly and change it over with both engines on the floor because many of the gaskets in these manifolds are only available genuine ex Japan and getting them here takes time .
When I get their packets home I'll post their part numbers in case anyone needs to order them . I don't think they cost a lot .

Also a heads up , the spider Vortex pitch stopper arm goes bolt if you have the matching bracket which bolts to the gearboxs front upper through bolts .
With the Vortex top cross over pipe in place the spare wheel carrier and heat shield won't go in so must try fitting it with the pipe removed and hope it misses the relocated throttle cable .

Lastly I looked to see if you can see down through the hole to the flywheel and I reckon if you had a compact LED torch you could set the timing without a front pointer , don't want to put one on the old engine for the sake of a couple of weeks .

Car should be coming home tomorrow , cheers A .

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:41 pm

Did you use the XT IAC valve or the RX one?
the later model XT ones have a habbit of the die cast casing warping under pressure from the connecting air hoses, causing the plate inside to jam. No amount of throttle body cleaner will free them up, because they are mechanically stuck. Holden (maybe Nissan too under 80's Aus. content laws)used a Bosch one on RB30s, which looks identical and the connector is the same, I dont know if they are any better though, or even if they work in the same manner.
You can see if they are warped by checking if the in/out spigots are plumb with each other.
I think the RX IAC valve might just squeeze under the fuel/vac rails, maybe you could try that.
(of course, the problem you are having may not even be IAC valve related, just sharing some info that frustrated me)

With the EGR, just blank it off, its unwanted hot air and CO anyway.

If you have the front bracket, is it possible to get a couple of photos of it, and possibly a scan? If I cant get one, may have to fab one up

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:30 pm

Yes I did wonder about the cold start air bypass valve , they can make a hiss when open .

I was surprised when the idle speed came down in steps rather than a gradual decline .
I've mucked around with those "dumb bell valves" on Nissan EFI engines before j ust hope the spiders one is not too dificult to get out in situ as the breather pipes are a real tight mess in that area .

Will also check the FICD in time .

I think people at USMB have pics of Vortex pitch stopper brackets .

A .

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:45 pm

Yeah, when I said "bracket" I actually meant 'timing plate'
be great to get a pic to copy

PS what is FICD?

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:19 am

Fast Idle Control Device

The octagonal thing on the side of the throttle body that increases engine revs when you turn on the air conditioning

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:51 pm

The good news is that you can see down to the flywheel timing marks/pointer . All ya gotta do is shine a torch straight down inside the short side of the Vortex TB to turbo pipe - at the TB end .

I think I have two of those crank pulley end timing mark scale plates and one will be going on the rebuilt engine if it makes life easier to set the timing .
Note that neither my RX L series (harmonic V belt) or the Vortex spider turbo engine (polly V belt) crank pulleys have any marks at all on them - at all ...

The RX is half way home as in at work rather than the opposite extremity of the word from where I am in Sydney .
I got to drive it at 100 km/h on the M4 and it doesn't feel too bad though I suspect the ignition timing is retarded from where I had it .
The idle speed is a bit eratic - not so much all over the place but virtually impossible to set to my usual 750-800 , I can get it higher (1000 1100) or too slow at (5-600) so I suspect the half dumb bell shaped cold start air bypass is acting up . I have a spare so I'll try that when I get time .
The poor idle was partially fixed we think by sealing the EGR valve mounting point with a blanking plate and gasket .
The computer is probably scratching its head because the TPS and coil pulse would be telling it its idling but getting more air than it should be via the cold start bypass valve which it can't see . These valves are a "dumb device" because they are usually powered up by the fuel pump relay (stops battery current heating its coil and closing it up if the ignition is on but the engines not running) . If the engine is warm the valve is warm because its bolted to the water log , this stops the extra air and a really fast idle when starting up warm or at running temp . An easy test is to remove and block the the air hoses and try setting the correct idle speed via the TBs bypass screw .

The fuel tank is pressurising because the charcol canisters diaphragm valve fittings are not yet connected , only the tank breather hose and the connection to the AFM-turbo rubber hose - which is the std RX L hose which also luckily has the hole in the righ place to connect the Vortex OS head breather hose .
Don't try using the Vortex AFM-Turbo rubber hose because its too long . The std ones fits and works - bonus .

Actually I'm hoping someone can help me here because I didn't note which small rubber hoses connect to the twin brass tubes on the 3 plug MPFI throttlebody . I'm 99% sure one of the charcol canisters actuator vacuum hoses (the small one) does but don't know which one or if it matters which one . The larger of the two I think just goes back to an inlet manofold tap .
I have an 87 WSM but it doesn't cover the earlier 3 plug MPFI systems emissions plumbing .
Also we discovered more differences between the 3 plug and four plug TB's , these brass tubes I mentioned are there on the later 4P one but where the bleed holes are in relation to the throttle plate when close or just barely open is different .
For the record I've used my L 3 plug TB/TPS on a flange modified spider plenum . When standing in front of the car looking back and down at the TB the cable and quadrant are on your left hand side of the TB (os of car) and the TPS on your right hand side of TB (ns of car) . The two brass tubes are on what has become the top edge of the TBs mount flange .
If I had the 85/85 WSM here it should show a schematic diagram of the canister and purge system , the 87 WSM has one for later models .
If anyone has the Emission Control System and Vacuum Fitting section of the 85/85 WSM can you please look up the diagram for the MPFI Turbo (Australia) diagram and tell me where the "Purge Control Valve" hoses plumb in .

ATM my TB's brass tubes are joined by a small piece of rubber hose and thinking about it I should block them completly until I find the correct way to plumb them .

Need sleep , cheers A .

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:59 pm

Cool, sounds like your almost there! would you sell me the other timing plate? and possibly the set of poly rib pulleys?

Some photos of your conversion would be nice to see...

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:31 pm

Almost there I wish . In a week or two we get to rip this engine out and transfer the whole manifold assembly onto the new one which thank god looks like it will work without gutting infernal insect .

Putting it on this engine was about ironing out all the bugs before the in one day engine change . Fair ding I've gone from having no transport to both cars at the same place and time so a logistical nightmare involving 2am starts at work and buzzing between Port Waratah and Gunning .

I need a couple of days to sort other things out ATM , will get back on the "plate" .

Cheers A .

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:33 pm

cheers disco, email me nncool[AT]hotmail.com when your ready.
neville.

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:25 am

What I may do is ask AJ if making these front timing mark brackets is expensive - as in relative to what people are willing to pay .
Also they may not very expensive to buy new from Subaru though you'd need a parts finder to get its part number and probably order from Japan .

A group buy can work well in these situations but I'm not interested in organising that , don't have the time .

I will be seeing Tynons who are the ones that supply Subaru bits in this part of the world for Spider manifold gaskets , the ones between the "layers" ie the top or bridge section to injector stub ones , the water transfer log to injector stub ones - and may as well have genuine manifold to inlet port (heads) ones .
The genuine gaskets are reasonably thick which means they have the ability to compress and make a good seal , if any of them leak it's a PITA and having coolant holes right next to inlet ports at the heads is not a famous idea .

If I get time later I'll post the part numbers off the gaskets packets though they may not specify which ones which . Uh also the numbers for the genuine injector O ring seals which we used .

In time , cheers A . Should call this thing Tardis .

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:09 pm

V quickly Spider Vortex manifold gasket Pt no's .

"SEAL - FUEL INJECT" 1660AA000 Quantity 2
"GASKET - WATER PIPE" 14072AA060 Qty 2
"GASKET - INT MANIF" 14035AA160 Qty 1 (need 2) . Inlet port (at head) gaskets .
"GASKET - INT MANIF" 14035AA170 Qty 2 . Plenup (top) section to injector mount sections .

Cheers A .

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm

can I have a photo of it? Im happy with a secondhand one

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:35 pm

Away from home ATM but been reading through a copy of the EFI section of the 88 American XT4/6 manual to nut out the vacuum hose connections .
When the spider manifold was built up on my engine I removed the section of steel tubes that surround the EGR and purge solenoid valves because these just add to the complexity and make things hard to get at .
My 86 RX only has the one solenoid and thats to control the EGR valve . I can mount that elswhere (where it can be got at) .
In time I may relocate the fuel pressure regulator so it can be got at as well . Things like these tend to go pear shaped at the worst possible moments and are frustrating to work on when hot and burried underneath things .

I am slowly getting a handle on which hose goes where to run the EGR and purge systems , tomorrow I'm going to dig out the spare 3 plug system throttlebody I have and get to the bottom of the two brass tubes and where their drillings are in relation to the closed throttle plate , if they are the same then either will serve the same purpose .

Back to the injector plugs . I have a second hand set of Snap On plug terminal probes and managed to get the female terminals out of both the original EA82 and the nicer Bosch GM style plug bodies . They won't interchange but theres nothing stopping you from cutting the original wires behind the std mongrel plugs and splicing on the good plug assemblies - they don't need tools to remove only finger pressure on the top of the wire retainer . They push straight back on as well .

Also I must fit a spare cold start air bypass valve and try to fix the idle speed . Also need to play with the timing because it feels a bit dead/retarded .

MUST change the thermostat back to the 76/170 deg one , car feels like an oven inside atm and the engine doesn't run any better at the higher 82/180 deg temp .

Cheers A .

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:14 pm

Idle probs solved by sealing EGR interface at manifold and plumbing dizzy vacuum to the RHS (pass side) TB brass port insted of the plenum chamber .
Note that my 3 plug TB/TPS is on a modified spider manifold so what you normally see from the front of an L EA82T (pointing upwards) is almost horizontal pointing backwards .

3 plug TB's have "ported vaccum" meaning there is a small hole blocked by the throttle valve when closed . Actually there is a slightly larger hole in front of the throttle plate when closed but the two are linked to the brass tube that plumbs to the 3 plug systems dizzy vac can .

I'd say they want no dizzy vac (or little) at closed throttle but more at part throttle (cruising/light load throttle position) , and less at greater throttle openings .
When the turbo is boosting you wouldn't get sub atmospheric pressure anyway and I think positive pressure on the "vac can" makes the dizzy retard to avoid detonation .

People playing with MPFI 3 plug computer EA82's want to get this right because it you don't setting the timing at idle won't have the rest of the rev ranges timing right - well factory anyway .
Plumbing the dizzy to the plenum (on anywhere down stream of the TB) means you get lots of vac - so to speak at idle . As you know timing is usually set with the vac line disconnected and the vac source temporarily blocked .
If you do this and then reconnect the vac advance mechanism (to the plenum) it gets vac when it's not supposed to and pulls the breaker plate around advancing the timing too much .

The 3 plug systems mechanical/manifold pressure ignition control system is not perfect but it can be fiddled where the later 4 plug system is in the hands of the electronics .

Cheers A .

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:26 pm

Interesting. Do you have any pics of any of this stuff yet disco? are you using the grey vortex IAC valve, or the Black RX one?