I have a 335,000k old ea82 carby engine in my L series sportswagon. It runs ok (for an ea82) and doesn't use oil. It has the usual tick of death (TOD) and its been getting to me a bit lately. I'm running a 5w40 synthetic oil, which hasn't made much difference. It normally only ticks when warming up, but its really really noisy.
Now I've been doing some reading about the hydraulic lash adjusters, and I'm thinking about replacing them. I was also thinking about the merits of putting turbo spec camshafts into it at the same time, as the cams have to both come out. My boss seems to think that if I change the cam profiles, I will end up with valve/ring problems shortly thereafter and end up having to rebuild the engine. What is everyone's thoughts on this?
The other thing, if I was to change the cams, should I pull the cylinder heads off, and check/replace the valve springs, and get the valves reground and heads skimmed at the same time?
If I was to go to all that trouble, should I be looking at rebuilding the bottom end too?
It just keeps esculating further and further out of control.
I also have an oil leak from either the oil pump or the crankshaft seal, which I will be looking at fixing when I do the HLA's. Should I perhaps replace the whole oil pump assembly?
Other options I could get into are possibly different cylinder heads/manifold configurations, and there is always the possibility of putting a weber and exhaust on it as well (I'd much rather have different spec cams first before doing that though).
The more money I spend on it, the longer I have to keep the vehicle too, and the more I need to drive it, to recover the cost of repairs. I do also have the thought in my head of updating to an XG XR6 ute as well, but haven't got a stack of money and it won't happen for a long time yet.
Can I ask for some opinions on what I should fix/replace/modify? I'm thinking I'd rather keep a carby ea engine in it than put an ej in as I want to keep it simple with minimal down time. That and I can't write blue slips.... (I only can do pink slips).
TOD repairs and camshaft thoughts
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Gannon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4580
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Bowraville, Mid Nth Coast, NSW
There are 3 components that wear out and cause the dreaded ticking.
Oil pump seal (mickey mouse seal) flattens and leaks, reducing oil pressure
Hydraulic Lash adjusters wear and dont pump up properly
Oil relief valve in the cam housing, the spring loses tension and reduces oil pressure.
Knowing which one is a gamble, so start from the cheapest and work your way up.
As for putting in turbo cams, would be a huge backwards step. They have less overlap than NA cams and this reduces torque if you havent got a turbo forcing air into the engine.
If you want more power, start with a webber, and then get some hotter cams designed for the NA engine.
Oil pump seal (mickey mouse seal) flattens and leaks, reducing oil pressure
Hydraulic Lash adjusters wear and dont pump up properly
Oil relief valve in the cam housing, the spring loses tension and reduces oil pressure.
Knowing which one is a gamble, so start from the cheapest and work your way up.
As for putting in turbo cams, would be a huge backwards step. They have less overlap than NA cams and this reduces torque if you havent got a turbo forcing air into the engine.
If you want more power, start with a webber, and then get some hotter cams designed for the NA engine.
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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steptoe
- Master Member
- Posts: 11582
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: 14 miles outside Gotham City
Cheapest for TOD is to check the tension of your timing belts. Has been reported in here recently that slack belts can cause it as well. I just pulled down a motor that had some times TOD, other it was quiet as with 180k and belts done 60k earlier. I found the longer belt was slack as ! Wondered if it was the cause.Will only know if I rebuild using its lifters which I won't be dong as lifters are going in on turbo heads on this N/A block sometime soon.
Next cheapest is Wynns or Nulon lifter free oil add and drive it in for about 1000km to see.
Every engine is a can of worms.
Cheap is doing it yourself and only paying for parts. If you need to replace springs can be done with compressed air pumped into locked up motor out of car with spring remover tool without head removal. A weak valve spring can almost be felt with ya fingers and hand pressure. Do a compression test and if posible cylinder leakage test before puling apart. Never heard the change cam after problems before. What evidence does your boss present, good credo ?
Next cheapest is Wynns or Nulon lifter free oil add and drive it in for about 1000km to see.
Every engine is a can of worms.
Cheap is doing it yourself and only paying for parts. If you need to replace springs can be done with compressed air pumped into locked up motor out of car with spring remover tool without head removal. A weak valve spring can almost be felt with ya fingers and hand pressure. Do a compression test and if posible cylinder leakage test before puling apart. Never heard the change cam after problems before. What evidence does your boss present, good credo ?
I think the thought was that the gasses would fill the cylinders differently, more compression, different times etc and my valves and rings being 330k old, I would perhaps cause premature failure.... I'm a bit undecided.
I need to perhaps do the oil pump first as I have a leak from that area of the engine. maybe I should pull the tappet covers off as well, pop the cams out, and check the lifters as per workshop manual, replacing as required. I also check timing belt tension at the same time, as it all comes apart for this job anyway.
Does anybody have the tensioner springs for the timing belt assemblies? I put mine together without them, (as I didn't pull it apart, and had previously never worked on subaru timing belts at all) and I have managed to lose them. I suppose when I do this repair this would be the time to replace them.
I will be doing the entire job myself, as I happen to be a motor mechanic
I may get the cams reground, not after anything insanely lumpy, just a little different/more torquey than stock. The "turbo" cam I was looking at was a reground thing, and they reckoned it had slightly more overlap than a stock cam. Maybe I was reading the page wrong?
I have 6000km to think about it anyway, I am going to coincide these repairs with my next oil and filter change.
Robert.
I need to perhaps do the oil pump first as I have a leak from that area of the engine. maybe I should pull the tappet covers off as well, pop the cams out, and check the lifters as per workshop manual, replacing as required. I also check timing belt tension at the same time, as it all comes apart for this job anyway.
Does anybody have the tensioner springs for the timing belt assemblies? I put mine together without them, (as I didn't pull it apart, and had previously never worked on subaru timing belts at all) and I have managed to lose them. I suppose when I do this repair this would be the time to replace them.
I will be doing the entire job myself, as I happen to be a motor mechanic
I may get the cams reground, not after anything insanely lumpy, just a little different/more torquey than stock. The "turbo" cam I was looking at was a reground thing, and they reckoned it had slightly more overlap than a stock cam. Maybe I was reading the page wrong?
I have 6000km to think about it anyway, I am going to coincide these repairs with my next oil and filter change.
Robert.
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discopotato03
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:29 am
- Location: Sydney
I'd be resetting the belt tensioners , there are two holes on either side of the crank pulley (in the belt cover) plugged with an oval shaped plug each side . Under these are the heads of the bolts holding and locking the belt tensioners for each side .
To do the drivers side one all you have to do is wind the engine in the normal direction with the RHS pair of bolts just backed off . Turning the engine via the crank pulley pulls the drivers side cam belt taut so the spring on the unloaded side of the belts tensioner reels in any slack . Re torque the bolts to the specified tension which I think is 29-35 ft/lbs but check this first .
Same deal with the pass side belt .
Don't be at all surprised if most of the terminal rattles go away , when the belts tensions is wrong/slack you get cam thrash as the cam lobes push on the rockers to open the valves (belt under tension) and then the springs via the rockers push on the cam lobes as the valves close . The poor old camshaft gets pulled and then pushed , the thrash is directly proportion to the excess slack in the belt . You really notice it at idle , other than the cam thrash you also hear the slack belt slapping on the inside periphery of the belt case . You can see scrub marks on the outside of the belts that correspond to the ribs on their inner sides .
My 86 RX L series has 303k now and when the belts are right no " lifter tick" .
I'm wary of rising rate fuel pressure regulators because fuel pressure rises out of proportion to manifold pressure .
Whats supposed to happen is fuel pressure is a set amount above manifold pressure so fuel rail pressure has a constant pressure "head" above manifold pressure . To check this run the fuel pump with the regs vacuum line removed so it reads atmospheric pressure . Lets say you splice a gauge in and it reads 38 psi , when normally running at say 10 pounds of boost the pressure will be 48 psi . If your engine idled at ~ 4.7 lbs/sq in (absolute pressure) the reg should read 28 psi (gauge pressure) .
When rising rate regs like the Malpassi ramp up fuel rail pressure its out of proportion to manifold pressure and strange things happen .
With extra injector/s you have to be 100% certain that you have even mixture distribution between the four inlet manifold runners or some pots run rich and others not . You may not tell with an oxygen sensor in the tail pipe because rich and leaner running cylinders mix their exhaust gasses together before the 02 probe .
Really the only sure fire way is to use larger injectors in the std locations or two in each runner .
Be a bit scared of injecting fuel upstream of the throttle-body on a road car . Very real fire risks exist because high voltage things like electronic ignitions can easily ignite fuel vapor in an engine bay if things leak gas wise .
Also should your engine backfire with the throttle open any flammable gasses upstream can become like a bomb , literally . Regulating bodies would eat you alive .
I tend to think alterations to the vane AFMs internals or an interceptor like the Jaycar DFA and larger electrically compatible injectors is the go , other than aftermarket management that is .
Microtek and ignition systems , honestly the later optical CAS/dizzy is a beter system . All it does is give the computer four TDC pulses and the other small ones tell the computer of crank speed transients . From these the computer tells the coil when to turn off and dump its current across the rottor button/cap/lead/plug , via its transister .
Most aftermarket computers aren't fast enough or smart enough to read and interpret the signals from these Nissan style optical crank angle sensors .
Luckily the aftermarket can usually supply lazer cut discs to put inside the OEM optical CAS which lesser aftermarket computers can read .
I went there years ago trying to make a a normally mechanical/vac distributor into a CAS and its far from easy . You have to defeat the mechanical and vac systems to lock the "breaker plate" to the shaft and at the same time re orient the rotor button to suit a mechanically locked CAS .
THEN you get to stuff around converting sine wave signals to square wave ones (reluctor adaptor/tach adapter ?) .
The only disadvantage with a disc modified 4 plug system dizzy/CAS is that the distributor caps are supposed to be expensive .
You will find them in wreckers , all hotwire EFI L's have them and wreckers usually just think the an old dinosaur Sube dizz .
A .
To do the drivers side one all you have to do is wind the engine in the normal direction with the RHS pair of bolts just backed off . Turning the engine via the crank pulley pulls the drivers side cam belt taut so the spring on the unloaded side of the belts tensioner reels in any slack . Re torque the bolts to the specified tension which I think is 29-35 ft/lbs but check this first .
Same deal with the pass side belt .
Don't be at all surprised if most of the terminal rattles go away , when the belts tensions is wrong/slack you get cam thrash as the cam lobes push on the rockers to open the valves (belt under tension) and then the springs via the rockers push on the cam lobes as the valves close . The poor old camshaft gets pulled and then pushed , the thrash is directly proportion to the excess slack in the belt . You really notice it at idle , other than the cam thrash you also hear the slack belt slapping on the inside periphery of the belt case . You can see scrub marks on the outside of the belts that correspond to the ribs on their inner sides .
My 86 RX L series has 303k now and when the belts are right no " lifter tick" .
I'm wary of rising rate fuel pressure regulators because fuel pressure rises out of proportion to manifold pressure .
Whats supposed to happen is fuel pressure is a set amount above manifold pressure so fuel rail pressure has a constant pressure "head" above manifold pressure . To check this run the fuel pump with the regs vacuum line removed so it reads atmospheric pressure . Lets say you splice a gauge in and it reads 38 psi , when normally running at say 10 pounds of boost the pressure will be 48 psi . If your engine idled at ~ 4.7 lbs/sq in (absolute pressure) the reg should read 28 psi (gauge pressure) .
When rising rate regs like the Malpassi ramp up fuel rail pressure its out of proportion to manifold pressure and strange things happen .
With extra injector/s you have to be 100% certain that you have even mixture distribution between the four inlet manifold runners or some pots run rich and others not . You may not tell with an oxygen sensor in the tail pipe because rich and leaner running cylinders mix their exhaust gasses together before the 02 probe .
Really the only sure fire way is to use larger injectors in the std locations or two in each runner .
Be a bit scared of injecting fuel upstream of the throttle-body on a road car . Very real fire risks exist because high voltage things like electronic ignitions can easily ignite fuel vapor in an engine bay if things leak gas wise .
Also should your engine backfire with the throttle open any flammable gasses upstream can become like a bomb , literally . Regulating bodies would eat you alive .
I tend to think alterations to the vane AFMs internals or an interceptor like the Jaycar DFA and larger electrically compatible injectors is the go , other than aftermarket management that is .
Microtek and ignition systems , honestly the later optical CAS/dizzy is a beter system . All it does is give the computer four TDC pulses and the other small ones tell the computer of crank speed transients . From these the computer tells the coil when to turn off and dump its current across the rottor button/cap/lead/plug , via its transister .
Most aftermarket computers aren't fast enough or smart enough to read and interpret the signals from these Nissan style optical crank angle sensors .
Luckily the aftermarket can usually supply lazer cut discs to put inside the OEM optical CAS which lesser aftermarket computers can read .
I went there years ago trying to make a a normally mechanical/vac distributor into a CAS and its far from easy . You have to defeat the mechanical and vac systems to lock the "breaker plate" to the shaft and at the same time re orient the rotor button to suit a mechanically locked CAS .
THEN you get to stuff around converting sine wave signals to square wave ones (reluctor adaptor/tach adapter ?) .
The only disadvantage with a disc modified 4 plug system dizzy/CAS is that the distributor caps are supposed to be expensive .
You will find them in wreckers , all hotwire EFI L's have them and wreckers usually just think the an old dinosaur Sube dizz .
A .
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discopotato03
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:29 am
- Location: Sydney
I nearly forgot the camshafts , these are from 87+ later L cars .
Aust carby cam . 10-54 49-15 so 244 int/244 exh 25 deg overlap , 9.0 CR
Aust turbo cam . 14-56 56-14 so 250 int/250 exh 28 deg overlap , 9.5 CR
Aust NA cam . 16-60-60-16 so 256 int/256 exh 32 deg overlap , 7.7 CR
Don't forget that EFI heads are different to carby ones and compression ratio makes all the difference .
All else being equal going from the above carby profile to the same era turbo one would be a mild upgrade , an extra 6 degrees of duration each side and 3 more degrees overlap .
I don't know what the largest L carby model is but that and its inlet manifold wouldn't go astray if you don't have it .
A .
Aust carby cam . 10-54 49-15 so 244 int/244 exh 25 deg overlap , 9.0 CR
Aust turbo cam . 14-56 56-14 so 250 int/250 exh 28 deg overlap , 9.5 CR
Aust NA cam . 16-60-60-16 so 256 int/256 exh 32 deg overlap , 7.7 CR
Don't forget that EFI heads are different to carby ones and compression ratio makes all the difference .
All else being equal going from the above carby profile to the same era turbo one would be a mild upgrade , an extra 6 degrees of duration each side and 3 more degrees overlap .
I don't know what the largest L carby model is but that and its inlet manifold wouldn't go astray if you don't have it .
A .
if it was cam belt related, wouldn't it be more constant? this does it only when cold/warming up, once warm the noises seem to go away.
the australian na (i'm assuming efi) ea82 cams would be best for an increase in torque?
I think I need to bump my float level up a fraco as well, although I will check this on the four gas analyser before/after doing so.
I will check belt tensions on weekend, but I don't think thats the drama (I could be wrong).
Robert
the australian na (i'm assuming efi) ea82 cams would be best for an increase in torque?
I think I need to bump my float level up a fraco as well, although I will check this on the four gas analyser before/after doing so.
I will check belt tensions on weekend, but I don't think thats the drama (I could be wrong).
Robert
Retensioned timing belts, they were a bit on the loose side (almost enough to jump a tooth i reckon) now they are a smidge on the firm side i think, but still ok, TOD is still there...
Wasn't much I could see (without removing a lot of bits) as to where the oil is leaking from, will replace seals sometime down the track when leak gets worse.... probably when rego is due next time (I do write my own pinkslips, but fair's fair, the car has to be the same as anyone elses)
Robert.
Wasn't much I could see (without removing a lot of bits) as to where the oil is leaking from, will replace seals sometime down the track when leak gets worse.... probably when rego is due next time (I do write my own pinkslips, but fair's fair, the car has to be the same as anyone elses)
Robert.
+1 for cam belt tension. I did mine the other day after a belt snapped on me, and its definately helped the ticking situation. It hasn't gone away completely but it's definately nowhere near as bad as it was!
I'm going to be doing all the oil pump seals next as i have a bad leak there. I have to do the cam belts again with new ones anyway because the ones i put on to replace the broken one were second hand spares i had in the boot! Hopefully that should help a bit as well.
I've thought about doing all the lifters becuase i'll be doing the head gaskets as well, (no. 4 cylinder is leaking compression) but i can't find anywhere that sells the lifters cheap enough!
I'm going to be doing all the oil pump seals next as i have a bad leak there. I have to do the cam belts again with new ones anyway because the ones i put on to replace the broken one were second hand spares i had in the boot! Hopefully that should help a bit as well.
I've thought about doing all the lifters becuase i'll be doing the head gaskets as well, (no. 4 cylinder is leaking compression) but i can't find anywhere that sells the lifters cheap enough!
for $2200 I would expect a nearly complete brand new ea82.... like a long motor or something.
I was at the wreckers chasing an idle solenoid the other day, they want $35 for a second hand item, and I was listening to a bloke ask for a water pump for his commodore, they wanted $20 for a second hand one..... there must be money to be made in second had car parts.... i won't buy things off wreckers unless its a last resort. everything is soooo bloody expensive, I can't beleive it!
I was at the wreckers chasing an idle solenoid the other day, they want $35 for a second hand item, and I was listening to a bloke ask for a water pump for his commodore, they wanted $20 for a second hand one..... there must be money to be made in second had car parts.... i won't buy things off wreckers unless its a last resort. everything is soooo bloody expensive, I can't beleive it!
wouldn't buy anything off them.three times the price it should be, and they are dumb as dogsh--
but that being said i have serious doubts as to whether there is such a thing as a wrecker who isn't. they seemed to have some old subarus, but nearly everything they have there could be put in the car crusher and not be a huge loss.... acres of rubbish and not a lot of good stuff.
but that being said i have serious doubts as to whether there is such a thing as a wrecker who isn't. they seemed to have some old subarus, but nearly everything they have there could be put in the car crusher and not be a huge loss.... acres of rubbish and not a lot of good stuff.