awd vs 4wd

shuffbag · Post by **shuffbag** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:10 am

i'm going to do a ej swap into my L i figure it would be easy to use the awd box that it will be coming with. i understand this will make the car handle better on road but what are the down sides to using one off road?

is there away to make it lock like the ea one when required?

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:32 am

To use the EJ AWD gearbox in it's standard form;
- Advantage is you don't need any kind of adaptor plate, it will just bolt to the engine.
To get it to physically fit and work in the car you need to;
- Get the front section of your tailshaft shortened professionally (cost approx $160). 75mm i think - check my "Build a car" thread.
- Custom make a gearbox crossmember. Best way is to use the original EA front section, bolt the EJ middle section to it, and custom drill holes and use some small blocks to make the rear EJ section bolt to the standard holes in the EA trans tunnel (where the auto crossmember usually bolts if it's an auto EA car).
- Custom shorten the shifter linkages by about 50mm but this might differ depending on how much body lift you are running (if applicable).

You can't get the centre diff to lock....but seriously, I know a few guys using standard AWD gearboxes offroad (and I have been too) and it really doesn't matter that much, they still go great offroad.

If you get a dual range AWD gearbox be aware that the only ones which have "propper" low range (ie, 1.5:1 ratio) are the early Impreza boxes. The early Lib and later model ones all have the rather useless 1.1:1 ratio low.

If you want the car to be primarily an offroader then get an adaptor plate and use the standard L series part time gearbox. The gearbox will work in the car straight off (none of the above mods required - just the adaptor plate). Just means you have to contend with front wheel drive when driving around normally, this is manageable with a non turbo motor but with an EJ20turbo you really need to keep your wits about you.

Ultimate gearbox for both onroad and offroad really is the very rare EA AWD gearbox. This is AWD for the road (well, not really true AWD as it only has an OPEN centre diff - no LSD), but has a lockable centre diff. Be aware that these also have the lame 1.1:1 low range ratio and really need to have a 1.5 ratio low range gear installed from a donor L series part time gearbox to really go well offroad - this is not too hard to do.

__JC__ · Post by **__JC__** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:59 am

AndrewT wrote: Just means you have to contend with front wheel drive when driving around normally, this is manageable with a non turbo motor but with an EJ20turbo you really need to keep your wits about you.

Upside is you can change lanes with the right foot, torque steer FTW!

I even find the EJ22 does it if you get up it through 1st -2nd.

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:03 pm

haha yeah you are right but at least it's easier to control. when the boost comes on with the EJ20turbo it lurches around pretty violently if you aren't careful. Just ask AdamB!

shuffbag · Post by **shuffbag** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:45 pm

so the ea box will be better for going up the step stuff. and i spose drive shafts would need to be custom jobs with the awd box? i have a complete car to take parts from (early lib), so could hubs/brakes be swaped?

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:05 am

nah the EJ AWD gearboxes just use the same inner CV cups as EFI and Turbo L series - 25 spline.
Although some L series (the carby models) have 23 spline inner CV cups, but they can just be swapped anyway.

Fang · Post by **Fang** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:40 am

If you do go the EJ gearbox - make sure the rear diff ratio suits the new box.

shuffbag · Post by **shuffbag** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:27 pm

AndrewT wrote:nah the EJ AWD gearboxes just use the same inner CV cups as EFI and Turbo L series - 25 spline.
Although some L series (the carby models) have 23 spline inner CV cups, but they can just be swapped anyway.

i picked up the lib (donour car) today and after driving it would like to keep the full awd set up. how hard are the inner cv cups to change? its a carb 1986 L. and do i use standard lenght L drive shafts?

my L is manual so what will i need to be done gearbox crossmember wise, for the manual awd box?

because i have the whole donour car to play with, what sould i do with the rear diff? can i switch centers L to lib?

i want to get this switch done as soon as i can!!!!!

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:55 am

The inner CV's are apparently very easy to swap over, although I haven't actually done it myself I always use a CV shop to do my CV work.
From what people say, inners are super easy to do. I am unsure if the Liberty inners will go onto the L series shaft (somebody will be able to confirm this), you may have to source some 25spline L series inners from a MPFI turbo or non-turbo model.

If the rear diff has the male stub axels just like the L series one then you can just swap the entire rear diff.
If it is a later model one then you may not be able to use it, sometimes the stub axels don't mix and match. In this case you'd have to source a diff with male stub axels that is the correct ratio.

What model Liberty is it? If it's a Gen1 or Gen2 I think the rear diff will just swap straight over.

shuffbag · Post by **shuffbag** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:55 pm

AndrewT wrote:The inner CV's are apparently very easy to swap over, although I haven't actually done it myself I always use a CV shop to do my CV work.
From what people say, inners are super easy to do. I am unsure if the Liberty inners will go onto the L series shaft (somebody will be able to confirm this), you may have to source some 25spline L series inners from a MPFI turbo or non-turbo model.

If the rear diff has the male stub axels just like the L series one then you can just swap the entire rear diff.
If it is a later model one then you may not be able to use it, sometimes the stub axels don't mix and match. In this case you'd have to source a diff with male stub axels that is the correct ratio.

What model Liberty is it? If it's a Gen1 or Gen2 I think the rear diff will just swap straight over.

its a 1990 lib wagon. can i switch the inner cv cups from my ea box?

lovey80 · Post by **lovey80** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:49 am

Andrew, was the EA AWD gearbox a 4 speed, 5 speed or both??

Cheers Chris

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:52 am

Not sure if u can use Lib inner cups on an L series shaft. Someone will know.

The EA AWD box is a 5spd. Although I think maybe there was a 4spd MY based AWD gearbox? Can anyone confirm this?? If it's true it would be extremely rare, much more so than the already rare 5spd.

shuffbag · Post by **shuffbag** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:33 pm

i might not have been clear on my last question.

could the inner cv cups from my ea82(carby) 5spd 4wd box be swaped with the cv cups from the gen1 lib awd 5spd box? that is if itdoesn't have the correct cups in already.

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:18 pm

If you have a carby gearbox then you most likely have 23spline inner CV cups to go onto your 23spline gearbox stub axels.

If you are going to be installing an EJ gearbox into your car then you will need your driveshafts to have 25spline inner CV cups. All EJ gearboxes have 25spline stub axels.

You *might* be able to install the 25spline inner CV cups from your liberty donor car onto your L series driveshafts (discarding your original 23spline ones) but I am unsure of this.

What I'm pretty sure will work is getting some 25spline inner CV cups from an EFI L series and putting them on your shafts.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:32 am

AndrewT wrote:What I'm pretty sure will work is getting some 25spline inner CV cups from an EFI L series and putting them on your shafts.

I've heard this can be done without swapping the whole shaft. But realistically if you got the whole shaft you might as well swap it for whats in there now - you'll have to take the drive shafts off to swap the CV inners, so why not swap the whole shaft and be done with it?

Good luck on your swap.

Cheers

Bennie

shuffbag · Post by **shuffbag** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:51 pm

i'm new to the whole drive shaft/cv thing if it didn't show but would it be at all possiable to use the liberty hubs/ brakes and just use the liberty drive shafts?

so L efi shafts have the corect splines for the ej gearbox and my standard ea hubs? if so that seams like a easy option.

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:38 pm

Unfortunately you can't use the Liberty stuff for a few reasons;
- The camber will be wrong, the L series control arms are too short - Libs are wider cars.
- The stud pattern won't match the rear hubs
- The hub won't fit onto an L series balljoint and a Lib balljoint won't fit the L series control arm
- The Lib driveshafts are too long
- The struts won't fit into the strut towers without a lift kit (unless you use Impreza ones).

This can all be resolved with custom control arms. These are supplied as part of the Crossbred Conversion kit (about $1200) which also includes everything you need to convert to Lib brakes at the rear, rear handbrake etc. Check out their website.

shuffbag · Post by **shuffbag** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:35 pm

so just getting drive shafts from a efi model L should work with ej gearbox and L hubs

PeeJay · Post by **PeeJay** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:27 pm

AndrewT wrote:- The stud pattern won't match the rear hubs

That never stopped me

- The Lib driveshafts are too long

I've had two pairs that are the right size (96WRX 93LIB) but everyone else seems to have trouble

- The struts won't fit into the strut towers without a lift kit (unless you use Impreza ones).

I think you've got that backwards - Lib struts fit WITHOUT the lift kit, when the lift kit goes in (2" for me) you have to have the strut top round the wrong way to get them to fit = bad alignment.

This can all be resolved with custom control arms.

I should point out they are exactly the same as L arms, but with the bigger balljoint mount.

+1 for crossbred kit from me too.

SUBYDAZZ · Post by **SUBYDAZZ** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:20 pm

AndrewT wrote:If you get a dual range AWD gearbox be aware that the only ones which have "propper" low range (ie, 1.5:1 ratio) are the early Impreza boxes. The early Lib and later model ones all have the rather useless 1.1:1 ratio low.

Err, that's a rather useless 1:1.196 ratio low thank-you very much!

Close enough to 1:1.2, so really not that much more useless than 1:1.5