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Good evening all.
My Wife's 96 auto Liberty starts ok but it takes a while to clear itself out when you start it. It runs really rough for a while like an old engine would with the choke pulled.

If she stops for a while say to fill with fuel the check engine light comes on when she re starts it.

Sometimes going up a hill it will die altoghether but re start and off it goes.

So far I have replaced with new the fuel pump, spark plugs (platinums now) and HT leads.

No go so I bought another car for parts and have swapped the fuel injectors and rails, AFM, duct between AFM and throttle body (a mouse ate a hole in the resonator of ours so it was taped up) and the coil.

However the fault stays with the car so I seem to be getting nowhere.

The ECU fault codes indicate that the knock sensor and oxygen sensor are at fault (well when it runs rough raw fuel is going past the oxy sensor)

Any ideas? I'm thinking that the ignition timing is floating about but the ECU is not reporting the crank angle sensor.

Thanks, Jim..

A faulty knock sensor will make the ECU pull timing and reduce power. A dud oxygen sensor will normally make the car run slightly rich.

Replace the knock sensor and oxygen sensor to clear the codes and the issues they may be causing.
Your air flow meter could do with a clean. Grab some NON lubricated electrical contact cleaner and spray on the sensor part of the air flow meter and allow to dry.

It could also be a dodgy connection at or in the main ignition relay, causing a high resistance joint and reducing the voltage to the engine sensors. It can be replaced with the same type, or with a pair of normal relays
Its the brown on in the middle, its a double relay

My MPFI L wagon used to do that.
I went over all the electrical conectors on the motor, sprayed them with CRC 226 and made sure they all had good contact, problem went away.

the default for all* O2 sensored ECU's is to go rich if no acceptable signal Voltage

* correct me if wrong


a mate loves to use the expression 'got a new horse coz needed new shoes'

parts car for an O2 sensor - true Subie nut !

Gannon wrote:A faulty knock sensor will make the ECU pull timing and reduce power. A dud oxygen sensor will normally make the car run slightly rich.

Replace the knock sensor and oxygen sensor to clear the codes and the issues they may be causing.
Your air flow meter could do with a clean. Grab some NON lubricated electrical contact cleaner and spray on the sensor part of the air flow meter and allow to dry.

It could also be a dodgy connection at or in the main ignition relay, causing a high resistance joint and reducing the voltage to the engine sensors. It can be replaced with the same type, or with a pair of normal relays
Its the brown on in the middle, its a double relay

+1 if you haven't changed the sensors yet do it and change the ignition relay as well.

As well clear all the codes before you go for a drive with the new sensors in, if you are unsure as to how to do this read here

TOONGA

my sisters EJ22 recently had the same problem.

I replaced the brown ignition relay with two standard relays as per the thread on here (have a search) about a month ago.

it was instantly fixed after we replaced basically everything on the car that would cause a problem.

It was one of the most tedious, frustrating things that i have ever done to a car before though. Makes me angry just thinking about it haha.

alex

Had one recently, threw lots of parts at it, coils, spark plugs, injectors off car for flow test and clean.
Ending up being a valve guide, only when the engine was hot.

this is the thread Alex was talking about.

TOONGA

OK thanks for all of the replies. Seems like we have a fairly common problem.

Judging by that link to the other thread I gather that this relay is somewhere above the drivers right foot is that correct?

Thanks, Jim...

Jim5.0 wrote:OK thanks for all of the replies. Seems like we have a fairly common problem.

Judging by that link to the other thread I gather that this relay is somewhere above the drivers right foot is that correct?

Thanks, Jim...

Yes it's up high on the right of the foot well. Behind the fuses.

It's really very tricky to get to. I chose not to use a second hand relay because it could be just as dodgy and buying a new one from subaru isn't feasible.

The link Jules put up is the one I used and does work really well

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OK on my parts car I have removed the fuse box and it's bracket and can just see the caramel covered relay perched up in a ridiculous spot.

I can get a stumpy philips head screwdriver onto the bracket for the relays but as there is no room for a good grasp on the screwdriver I can't undo the screw.

Can you get at this bracket and it's screw easier by removing the instrument cluster and going in that way? Or is it simply a shite piece of design that has no easy way around fixing it?

Thanks, Jim...

Personally I'd just leave the relay there and just unplug it and make up the new converted relay system, then cable tie it up out the way.

RSR 555 wrote:Personally I'd just leave the relay there and just unplug it and make up the new converted relay system, then cable tie it up out the way.

As I did. It's a really really tight fit up there tho!

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OK it lookslike a retro fit is the go then.

Pity really as I reckon that you could prise/cut the relay casing open then clean and re gap the contact points for it to be good as new.

Either that or at least gut the old relay and solder the wires to the stumps for a truly plug in adapter especially if I buy relay sockets for the new relays.

The fuel pump relay gave out on my old Falcon. Upon pulling the dead one apart I discovered that it had died because the stop that the contact arm rested on when there was no power had slowly bent away so in the off position the arm became too far from the electro magnet to pull in and close the points.

I cleaned up the contacts and adjusted the stop so that the maximum gap was now a lot smaller.

I don't have the Falcon any more but my capri will be getting an XR8 engine and will be using this repaired relay.

Jim...

Ford put some vital relays under the coolant expansion chamber and when it got trouble, shared some vital stuff with the relays, they corroded or whatever then suddenly disabled ignition. I guess at least they were accessible. XR8 Capri eh? First gen RWD not later wedge shape?

Jim, I'm sure you could take it apart and clean up the contacts but I'd doubt they would last very long. The conversion using Bosch relays is better option in my opinion.

Cheers,
Paul

Yep I went and bought a pair of Narva relays of the same type today and a bunch of crimp on spades.

I have wired up the two relays and taped them together via their brackets so they have some gap to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference with each other.

I have marked on the wires what pins on the relay socket they have to connect to but have not put the male spades on yet as I may trim some of the length out of the six wires.

The rest is a job for Saturday as I think that I'll probably have to remove the fuse box out of the car to get my hand anywhere near the caramel coloured (not caramel covered as I posted yesterday LOL) relay plug.

Thanks, Jim...

steptoe wrote:Ford put some vital relays under the coolant expansion chamber and when it got trouble, shared some vital stuff with the relays, they corroded or whatever then suddenly disabled ignition. I guess at least they were accessible.

That's one of the relays that I had wear out. One does fuel pump and the other does ignition. My fuel pump relay died and unfortunately for me the LPG fitter tied the gas solenoids to this relay so when the relay died the car would not go on either fuel.

I never had a leak in that vicinity & I had my first EB (new) for 2 years & 190,000km. I then got a new EF and had it for a year and 100,000km then I got a second hand EB which I kept for 12 years and sold it with 560,000km hence the relay wearing out.

Their location is a pita when you want to disconnect them for a compression test which has to be done hot...ouch!!

steptoe wrote: XR8 Capri eh? First gen RWD not later wedge shape?

Yep a real Capri not a FWD convertible. If I can't get it registered with the 5.0 then I may consider doing a turbo Subaru power driving the rear wheels only which is ironic as that would have more power than the V8.

Paul, should those relays be diode protected ones - asks a bit late, I know

I installed the relays on Sunday morning and my Wife took the car for a drive into town (30km round trip) and she has driven it to work and back twice (each way is about 50Km) so it has done ~230km since with no apparent issues.

Fingers crossed I fixed it thanks for the advice.

Jim..