Outback 2002 2.5L Hard to Start

Scoobaru · Post by **Scoobaru** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:42 am

Symptoms are worse when it has not been started for a while, such as the first start for the day.

It winds over for a bit without firing and then appears start on one cylinder and builds up to a smooth high idle. The exhaust emissions are clean.

I suspect that the fuel rail is bleeding dry due to leaky injector or faulty pressure valve in the fuel pump.

But I do think if it was a leaky injector I would get dirty exhaust emissions.

Opinions, and trouble shooting suggestions please.

Outback bloke · Post by **Outback bloke** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:55 pm

When starting it turn the ignition on and let the fuel pump cycle, usually takes about 5 seconds. Turn it off and then do it again another 2 times. If it starts instantly then I think are right about the non-return valve in the fuel pump. (If you listen carefully under the dash you will hear the fuel pump relay click in and then off)

If it still does it then I think it is related to your fuel pressure regulator.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:48 pm

Sorry to ask couple of questions - trying to workout background information.... What is the battery condition? Is it manual or automatic? Has timing been done correctly?
Cheers
AP

Scoobaru · Post by **Scoobaru** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:09 pm

I have only had the car 4 months. The timing belt and full service was done before I purchased it.

? Can it be set up wrong without having major symptoms ?

I still get 10km per litre, normal driving with aircon on.

It is only the standard size small battery, does hold good voltage 13.75, alternator is putting out 14.2v, and sounds like it cranks over OK.

Good point regarding battery, I will jumper another battery I know is very good as a trouble shoot test. I assume you suspect possible voltage drop at the coil pack.

? Do they usually fire straight away like my Liberty EJ22 ?

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:17 pm

Scoobaru wrote:I have only had the car 4 months. The timing belt and full service was done before I purchased it.

? Can it be set up wrong without having major symptoms ?

I still get 10km per litre, normal driving with aircon on.

It is only the standard size small battery, does hold good voltage 13.75, alternator is putting out 14.2v, and sounds like it cranks over OK.

Good point regarding battery, I will jumper another battery I know is very good as a trouble shoot test. I assume you suspect possible voltage drop at the coil pack.

? Do they usually fire straight away like my Liberty EJ22 ?

Yeah they should, first thing I would give it a go before you start it up to eliminate problems, I would try "jump start" even tho you dont have a flat battery and see if there is a change - thats from cold start or area where you'll have starting problems. the correct steps to jump start is positive to positive on batteries, negative and negative on ground anywhere to attach on engine, NOT negative on the battery... then start other car, then yours, that'll give you a good power boost and see if it improves or not. If it does then it could be the battery fault, apart from that what I could think of is the pump could be getting "weak" to prime but okay at running order, I would get the fuel system pressure tested.

Cheers
AP

Scoobaru · Post by **Scoobaru** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:21 pm

Thanks so much for your prompt input!

I will do the jump start test, and reply.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:24 pm

Scoobaru wrote:Thanks so much for your prompt input!

I will do the jump start test, and reply.

Yep let us know how it goes..
Cheers
AP

Scoobaru · Post by **Scoobaru** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:33 am

I done the jump start test,

It turned over faster, but still appeared to turnover the same amount of times before firing.

I also done the fuel prime test, and it must have a fuel pressure switch because it wont run the pump more than one time. I here a faint whistle and a click from the pump relay. I dont think its fuel pressure related.

I think its timing related, perhaps a cheep belt was used?

? What is the best timing method check for this, is a timing light good enough or Dyno tuning?

Is there any common causes for timing to be slightly out.

Outback bloke · Post by **Outback bloke** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:49 pm

Symptoms are worse when it has not been started for a while, such as the first start for the day.

This here suggests to me that is nothing to do with timing. If the timing is out at start up it will still be out when it is running or warm. Once you start the car first thing in the morning and then let it run for 5 minutes or so and then turned it off, would it start instantly then?

To prime the fuel pump a few times like I suggested you need to turn the ingition right to off between each attempt.

There is also a "start sense" wire that tees out from the starter wire that runs from your ignition barrel to the starter motor. It runs to the computer and tells the ecu that you are attempting to start the car which in turn activates a code set that is basically like turning on the choke. This circuit may be the problem which in turn would end up being the ecu itself as the wiring is not likely to be damaged.

If it is a cam timing issue the car can run but will not run smoothly at idle.

I didn't think that it would be a voltage issue as the EJ motors will start quite well on low voltage. Generally if there is enough voltage to wind the motor over they will start.

It could also be some thing as simple as a sticky cold air bypass (light brown unit on the manifold - "choke'). I think you need to eliminate a loss of fuel pressure first though.

Ignition timing is set by the ecu which gets it's readings from the cam and crank sensors. Cam timing has to dow tih the belt. You can check this yourself by removing the radiator and then the cam covers. The PITA thing with this is you ahve to remove the harmonic balancer from the crank as you only have 2 covers on that model. One long one on the drivers side and a shorter one on the other side.

Then you wind the motor over to get the crank timing mark to the top centre (lined up with the mark). Then the two cams should have the timing marks at top centre as well.

Scoobaru · Post by **Scoobaru** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:59 pm

It appears to run reasonably smooth at idle but there is presence of a slight imbalance or miss.

I think it could start better when its hot as well.

It has done 130,000, engine oil stays nice and clean.

I done the fuel prime test again and it still started rough, and that was in the afternoon and it had been for a run that day.

ECU or cold air by pass ??

Gremlins · Post by **Gremlins** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:17 pm

You could also try to see if the ECU is reporting any fault codes? I'm not sure how this is done for your model but I'm sure someone here could advise.

I'm also sort of thinking maybe a temperature sensor fault, or apparent temperature sensor fault? Friend of mine had a 93 EJ22 Liberty that behaved quite strange at startup (especially cold) and ECU reported a faulty temp sensor. I think the other symptom was the radiator electric fan was running all the time. In the end he took it into Subaru and all they did was an ECU reset. The temp sensor fault code didn't re-appear and everything returned to normal as well.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:59 pm

Gremlins wrote:You could also try to see if the ECU is reporting any fault codes? I'm not sure how this is done for your model but I'm sure someone here could advise.

I'm also sort of thinking maybe a temperature sensor fault, or apparent temperature sensor fault? Friend of mine had a 93 EJ22 Liberty that behaved quite strange at startup (especially cold) and ECU reported a faulty temp sensor. I think the other symptom was the radiator electric fan was running all the time. In the end he took it into Subaru and all they did was an ECU reset. The temp sensor fault code didn't re-appear and everything returned to normal as well.

I was about to say that above post.
Another thing - might help I dunno, disconnect the battery for overnight then reconnect and start it up? (to reset everything)
Cheers
AP

Scoobaru · Post by **Scoobaru** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:49 pm

I have had the codes read and there where no faults.

Went for a 500km trip over the weekend and I noticed it started better after that, perhaps it needs upper engine cleaner?

? I believe there is a valve adjustment for these ?

I have the service history and ts always been up to date.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:22 pm

Scoobaru wrote:I have had the codes read and there where no faults.

Went for a 500km trip over the weekend and I noticed it started better after that, perhaps it needs upper engine cleaner?

? I believe there is a valve adjustment for these ?

I have the service history and ts always been up to date.

worth a go, I would give it a go plus fuel tank additive as well, I recommend Würth fuel cleaner approx $16 a bottle and go for a long drive.
Cheers
AP

wrxer · Post by **wrxer** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:41 pm

chuck in a new set of plugs, just to eliminate them, it would explain about it being a bit better after a run, would suggest leads change as well, but maybe you can borrow a set from someone, just to eliminate them too

wrxer · Post by **wrxer** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:46 pm

i dont think valves clearance as they would be worse when hot, as valve stem length is longer and effectively gives you slightly more overlap so a rougher idle when hot as opposed to cold

Jaydnisevil · Post by **Jaydnisevil** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:19 pm

Usualy a slow start is down to the IAC (Idle air control valve)..Mines screwed, and can take upto 15 seconds to start. (Somedays are better than others)
Two ways to test:
pull the code - Underneath your steering columb, theres a black and green connector. hook the black to black. Turn your car to ignition but dont start..You car will blink a code with its CEL (its like morse code, so two long and 4 short is the ECU saying the IAC

http://www.scoobypedia.co.uk/index.php/ ... ngECUCodes

Test two - turn the key to start for just 1 rotation. Let it go back to ignition and try to start it again. What this does is lets the ECU know it didnt start, so it opens the IAC all the way. Sometimes like mine they get stickey and dont like to move little bits. The ECU will pull it WAYY out.
Let us know how you go

Code ITEM
11 Crankshaft position sensor
12 Starter switch
13 Camshaft position sensor
21 Engine coolant temperature sensor
22 Knock sensor
23 Mass air flow sensor
24 Idle air control solenoid
31 Throttle position sensor
32 Oxygen sensor
33 Vehicle speed sensor 2
35 Purge control solenoid valve
42 Idle switch
44 Wastegate control solenoid valve
45 Pressure sensor –Pressure exchange solenoid valve
51 Neutral position switch

Other Subaru Codes

These codes are not documented in the Impreza Workshop manual but are mentioned in other Subaru Documentation (and can be decoded by a Select Monitor), these may or may not be applicable to the Impreza.
Code ITEM
11 Crank angle Sensor or Circuit
12 Starter Switch or Circuit
13 Cam Position Sensor or Circuit (TDC Sensor on Justy)
14 Fuel Injector No. 1 (Legacy, Impreza, Justy, SVX)
15 Fuel Injector No. 2 (Legacy, Impreza, Justy, SVX)
16 Fuel Injector No. 3 (Legacy, Impreza, Justy, SVX)
17 Fuel Injector No. 4 (Legacy, Impreza, SVX)
18 Fuel Injector No. 5 (SVX)
19 Fuel Injector No. 6 (SVX)
21 Coolant Temperature Sensor or Circuit
22 Knock Sensor or Circuit (Right Side on SVX)
23 Air Flow Meter or Circuit (Exc. Justy)
24 Air Control Valve or Circuit (Exc. Justy)
25 Fuel injector No. 3 and 4 (XT-6)
26 Air Temperature Sensor (Justy)
28 Knock Sensor No. 2 (SVX, Left Side)
29 Crank Angle Sensor (SVX, No. 2)
31 Throttle Position Sensor or Circuit
32 Oxygen Sensor or Circuit (No. 1, Right Side, On SVX)
33 Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) or Circuit
34 EGR Solenoid or Circuit
35 Purge Control Solenoid or Circuit
36 Air Suction Solenoid Valve (Impreza)
37 Oxygen Sensor (No. 2, Left Side, On SVX)
38 Engine Torque Control (SVX)
41 Air/Fuel Adaptive Control
42 Idle Switch or Circuit
43 Throttle Switch
44 Wastegate Duty Solenoid (Turbo Models)
45 Pressure Sensor Duty Solenoid (Turbo Models)
45 Atmospheric Pressure Sensor or Circuit (Non-Turbo Models)
46 Neutral or Parking Switch or Circuit
47 Fuel Injector
49 Airflow Sensor
51 Neutral Switch (Manual Transmission Models)
51 Inhibitor Switch (Automatic Transmission Models)
52 Parking Brake Switch (Exc. Justy)
53 Fuel Pump or Circuit
54 Choke Control System
55 EGR Temperature Sensor or Circuit
56 EGR System
57 Canister Control System
58 Air Control System
61 Fuel Tank Pressure Control Solenoid (Impreza)
62 Fuel Temperature Sensor (Impreza)
63 Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor (Impreza)
64 Vacuum Line Control Valve or Circuit
65 Vacuum Pressure Sensor
66 Sequential turbo system
67 Exhaust valve solenoid (positive pressure)
68 Exhaust valve duty solenoid
71 Ignition Pulse System
73 Ignition Pulse System
74 Ignition Pulse System
88 TBI Control Unit

Scoobaru · Post by **Scoobaru** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:45 pm

Update:

Have changed the IAC valve with a clean one, also used upper engine cleaner, checked compresion (all above 195), also check fuel pressure.

I do here the lifters, could it be valve adjustment?

What should they be set at? SOHC 2.5L

jzk25 · Post by **jzk25** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:04 pm

If you are running premium unleaded then switch back to normal unleaded next tank and see how that goes. Gen 3 Ej25 do not start well on premium due to flash point differences in the fuel or something. You gain nothing with premium anyway, they are slugs and are meant to be that way.

Scoobaru · Post by **Scoobaru** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:58 pm

I have been told about an issue with premium fuels before, but I have found that I get better economy on premium fuels.

I believed that Premium fuels run cleaner through your system.

However I will do the test and report back!

I will do some research on this and may create a thread.

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Outback 2002 2.5L Hard to Start

Outback 2002 2.5L Hard to Start

Re: Premium Unleaded