2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder

[greydiesel]

Going uphill, in a high gear at the engine's highest torque band and feeling a shudder?

...Thats the clutch slipping.

Answer is above, one member replaces stock subie clutch with heavy duty Exedy and fixes problem.

[eems]

Just to follow up on this thread, i've had the EGR valve blanked off since February and the engine has not made a single shudder in that time.

It's %100 EGR system *related*. Right after blanking the unit, the engine still shuddered in an identical fashion. But, with after an ECU reset, the problem hasn't reappeared.

It's possible a learned function gets disrupted because of the EGR's operation. Just looking at it logically suggests the EGR valve operating causes the ECU to learn parameters which lead to outputs that cause the engine to shudder.

In summary, the car had a shudder problem for 14 months until the EGR was blanked off and the ECU reset. It has been working well for 9 months. DPF still re-generates and the car drives fine. Economy is better.

The engine check light does come on every 1000-1500kms with an intake temp error, which is common when EGR's are deleted. Looking into an electronic fix when i get some time.

[pitrack_1]

That's encouraging, I'm up for the 62.5k service next, probably near the end of the year. I'll see if I can get a readout too.

2010 Forester Diesel 62.5k service ~7 Nov: DPF Ash level readout 24%.

Spoke to the service manager. He didn't know about the ash level readout at first, but he bothered to find out (unlike some others). Willing to talk about other issues, he was most helpful and after my query upon possible eventual replacement due to ash he rang the Subaru Aust engineers to determine when the DPF replacement warning would be tripped.

The answer is DPF ash warning is at 100% ash level. So assuming linearity that gives me 62.5/24*100= ~260k kms before DPF replacement.

He also mentioned several DPFs have been replaced due to petrol being inadvertently added to the tank, they are $$$$ so be careful refueling!

[El_Freddo]

Just to follow up on this thread, i've had the EGR valve blanked off since February and the engine has not made a single shudder in that time.

What has the subaru service department had to say about doing this and your warranty?

Just curious.

Cheers

Bennie

[Subyroo]

2010 Forester Diesel 62.5k service ~7 Nov: DPF Ash level readout 24%.

Spoke to the service manager. He didn't know about the ash level readout at first, but he bothered to find out (unlike some others). Willing to talk about other issues, he was most helpful and after my query upon possible eventual replacement due to ash he rang the Subaru Aust engineers to determine when the DPF replacement warning would be tripped.

The answer is DPF ash warning is at 100% ash level. So assuming linearity that gives me 62.5/24*100= ~260k kms before DPF replacement.

He also mentioned several DPFs have been replaced due to petrol being inadvertently added to the tank, they are $$$$ so be careful refueling!

I was reading about the Mazda C5 Diesel and it's problems last night, looks like Subaru are not alone with diesel issues.

[pitrack_1]

I was reading about the Mazda C5 Diesel and it's problems last night, looks like Subaru are not alone with diesel issues.

But if it's the dipstick issue there's actually little to worry about, apart from owners whining about checking the oil level every 1000kms.

[Subyroo]

Pitrack, have you seen this claim yet?

Hi guys, we've got some news for the the diesel guys.

When I teamed up with a couple of Euro tuners, I pushed for the diesel forester tuning side of things.

The end result is we've managed to disable the particle filter sections in the ecu and also gain a bit of performance.


Our 'disable' DPF functions are cheap but they also require you make a booking with an exhaust shop to physically remove the particle filter. You can drive around with a clogged PF for a some time, but you will have to remove it eventually.

On top of this, we can tweak the ECU and gain around ~30hp and ~90nm of torque over the stock ecu base map. This can be included or be a separate tuning process.


If you want to know more, just ask away... Cheers

_________________
Tip for modding: Pick 2 from below:
FAST, CHEAP, RELIABLE...


www.crispmods.com or Visit my EBAY store for a quick look at some products

[pitrack_1]

Pitrack, have you seen this claim yet?

Hmmm, funny you should mention that. Are you tracking me, Peter? I was at MRT today having a gander at Brett Middleton's Diesel Forester which won the SUV Challenge (albeit a category started by him), and it won't have done that undergoing DPF regens.

Interestingly, the thing is almost bog standard, apart from safety mods, some suspension, tyres and an ECU retune +reprogram. Same intercooler, exhaust, radiator, EGR valve(!) et al.

Oh, and I did see crispmods somewhere, sometime. Note though the word seems to be the standard dual-mass clutch +flywheel can't handle more than ~400Nm (and +90Nm would give 440Nm).

I'd suggest the comment at the bottom of their post is telling...

Tip for modding: Pick 2 from below:
FAST, CHEAP, RELIABLE...

Cheers,
Patrick.

[icedvolvo]

Hey People,

This post may scare people a bit so don't read of you are the anxious type.




We got one of the first diesel Foresters (early 2010) and have had all these problems: shudders, DPF lights etc and others. Combine this with a useless local service group and our first experience with Suby is not a good one.

But it gets worse! Our car has 75k on it and recently has had numerous DPF light issues and shuddering has got worse but the other day the engine literally exploded: no I mean really exploded with a huge BANG and then died. It's under warranty .... just under thank god ... we had it towed the extra 100kms to a dealer much further away. Anyway it turns out that the turbo had exploded taking numerous other components with it (header pipe etc). We were told that the turbo was not getting any/enough oil but dont know why yet!

But on reading about oil dilution I am wondering if this is the real issue here: I understand oil dilution in diesels as I have always had diesels (mechanicals -> Euro V) but do not understand the link between DPF regeneration and oil dilution???

Regeneration takes place by pumping diesel into the catalytic converter to burn to heat it up (the converter glows red hot in our Isuzu trucks!!) but I don't understand why this should affect the oil dilution levels ??? Or have I missed the point: does the DPF light serve a double purpose i.e. DPF issues AND warning about oil change intervals AND/OR dilution levels???

EDIT:

Note 1: Oil dilution ocurrs because in cars diesel is injected during the exhaust stroke and thence into the exhaust/turbo and then to converter. Truck engines tend to inject the diesel directly into the catalytic converter. During the next compression stroke the left over diesel oil is forced past the rings into the oil/sump thus diluting it.

Note 2: Yes the DPF light is more like a generic warning light and so servers many functions including DPF and oil dilution (the latter via a simple "if regens_since_last_oil_change > x then DPF light->on)

[Subyroo]

Have a look at Picture #2 in this thread.

Could this be happening to the Diesel Forester as well?

[icedvolvo]

You may not actually need to do all the stuff they say in the article.

The DPF just uses simple pressure sensor comparison to read the pressure difference between front and rear of the filter. The pressure sensors are physical devices with an electrical output: you just have to simulate the output. In the case of one common light truck a simple 18k resistor between the terminals of the sensor comparator works fine; you can even disconnect the sensors altogether. Most DPFs also have a temperature sensor as well but that can just be left in place as well; the dpfs are almost always stainless so the muffler will last forever but you will have to remove the filling as per the article.

If you want to do this mod you will need a multimeter to measure the voltage at the two terminals of the sensors and the current to work out the resistor. Most circuits are quite simple if the comparator is not in the computer itself:

Code: Select all

front sensor ----comparator------rear sensor
                [color="red"] |       |[/color]
                 Va     Vb

R = (Va-Vb)/I

New circuit

Va ------ R ------ Vb

If individual sensor voltages are sent to the computer you will need to make two adjustable voltage regulators (zeners would probably do) to simulate "normal" sensor outputs.

HOWEVER NOTE: that the process of disabling/removing the DPF is illegal in all states in AU so your repair job will have to look "original" if you go over the pits.

[lalbne]

Hi all, as with many of you im fed up with dpf and oil dilution issues and the lack of action from subaru. Im going to lodge a complaint with fair trading. Would love to receive any pm's from anyone that would like to jump on board or forward me their specific issues to include as evidence. If this has limited/no results I will be taking legal action. There is definitely a case here these issues are not acceptable.

[LTurbo]

So a couple of years down the track now, are diesel owners still having shuddering issues? I am keen to pick up one of these second hand usually with around 150k on them. While I am happy enough to work with DPF and oil dilution issues, was there ever a solution/diagnosis to shuddering (yes I read the while thread). EGR delete?

[pitrack_1]

So a couple of years down the track now, are diesel owners still having shuddering issues? I am keen to pick up one of these second hand usually with around 150k on them. While I am happy enough to work with DPF and oil dilution issues, was there ever a solution/diagnosis to shuddering (yes I read the while thread). EGR delete?

No shudder for several years, nor have heard of anyone else having it in the past few years either.

I'd give a qualified 'solved' to this, at a guess from some software update.

Aim to pick up a newer one, say 2011/2 +, (whichever had the engine update). There seem to have been less issues with the newer ones- at least less posts/queries.

Look out for the glow plug issue with the 2010 (see my posts -and others- elsewhere), also search on this forum, such as here, blown turbo hoses, thrown A/C compressor.

Note shorted glow plugs blow a fuse that also disables the ABS and hence all stability control functions...and cruise control to boot.

[LTurbo]

No shudder for several years, nor have heard of anyone else having it in the past few years either.

I'd give a qualified 'solved' to this, at a guess from some software update.

Aim to pick up a newer one, say 2011/2 +, (whichever had the engine update). There seem to have been less issues with the newer ones- at least less posts/queries.

Look out for the glow plug issue with the 2010 (see my posts -and others- elsewhere), also search on this forum, such as here, blown turbo hoses, thrown A/C compressor.

Note shorted glow plugs blow a fuse that also disables the ABS and hence all stability control functions...and cruise control to boot.

Thanks for the advice and links Pitrack. Yeah, I have seen the glow plug issues through reading this thread and others.

[LTurbo]

Just to follow up on this thread, i've had the EGR valve blanked off since February and the engine has not made a single shudder in that time.

It's %100 EGR system *related*. Right after blanking the unit, the engine still shuddered in an identical fashion. But, with after an ECU reset, the problem hasn't reappeared.

It's possible a learned function gets disrupted because of the EGR's operation. Just looking at it logically suggests the EGR valve operating causes the ECU to learn parameters which lead to outputs that cause the engine to shudder.

In summary, the car had a shudder problem for 14 months until the EGR was blanked off and the ECU reset. It has been working well for 9 months. DPF still re-generates and the car drives fine. Economy is better.

The engine check light does come on every 1000-1500kms with an intake temp error, which is common when EGR's are deleted. Looking into an electronic fix when i get some time.

Hi eems, I'd be interested to know if the car has still been running fine with the EGR valve blanked off. Also did you just do this physically or had the EGR programmatically turn off in the ECU? or both?
Cheers

[RSR 555]

I see this is an old post, so not sure if this helps or the original poster's issues were solved but my daughter's foz was shuddering at between 2200 and 2300 RPM but we could not find any issues with it. The vehicle would shudder until you lifted the foot off the accelerator. We where looking at everything mechanical regarding driveline.. i.e. wheel balancing, wheel bearings, constant velocity joints, tailshaft universal joints, dual mass flywheel and/or clutch but never thought of DPF/EGR issues but after cleaning out the DPF and EGR system, all the shuddering has gone.

[pitrack_1]

I see this is an old post, so not sure if this helps or the original poster's issues were solved but my daughter's foz was shuddering at between 2200 and 2300 RPM but we could not find any issues with it. The vehicle would shudder until you lifted the foot off the accelerator. We where looking at everything mechanical regarding driveline.. i.e. wheel balancing, wheel bearings, constant velocity joints, tailshaft universal joints, dual mass flywheel and/or clutch but never thought of DPF/EGR issues but after cleaning out the DPF and EGR system, all the shuddering has gone.

You could perhaps also check which firmware version your car is running. I think there was a firmware update that removed the issue, esp as it only seemed to occur in Oz to the early vehicles and seems to have vanished since. We had it once whilst the car was almost new, and under cruise control.

To me it had the feelings of a misprogramming where there is no hysteresis allowed, i.e. no overlap in on/off values and the same number is use to turn something on or off- when it hits X, something turns on, but 'cos X turns it off too it immediately turns off again... it's X so it turns on...and the cycle continues (thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk as you drive along). Note this is just an opinion/feeling...

[RSR 555]

You could perhaps also check which firmware version your car is running. I think there was a firmware update that removed the issue, esp as it only seemed to occur in Oz to the early vehicles and seems to have vanished since. We had it once whilst the car was almost new, and under cruise control.

The firmware was replaced with the updated version with the previous owner (Subaru WA.. was a sales reps car) and the car would shudder with or without the cruise control set.

To me it had the feelings of a misprogramming where there is no hysteresis allowed, i.e. no overlap in on/off values and the same number is use to turn something on or off- when it hits X, something turns on, but 'cos X turns it off too it immediately turns off again... it's X so it turns on...and the cycle continues (thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk as you drive along). Note this is just an opinion/feeling...

I'm sure there was some kind of overlap happening but the feeling was more in the driveline than the engine itself but (crossing all fingers and toes whilst saying this) all those symptons have gone and we can only put this down to either the DPF and/or the EGR system.

[pitrack_1]

The firmware was replaced with the updated version with the previous owner (Subaru WA.. was a sales reps car) and the car would shudder with or without the cruise control set.

I'm sure there was some kind of overlap happening but the feeling was more in the driveline than the engine itself but (crossing all fingers and toes whilst saying this) all those symptons have gone and we can only put this down to either the DPF and/or the EGR system.

In that case I'm pretty sure you've 'hit it on the head' with your clean. Our car was (mostly) serviced by a Subaru dealer and 'decarbonised' for free at the 100000km service.