2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder

skipalami · Post by **skipalami** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:51 pm

I know the Diesel Outbacks coming in this year are going to sport a new engine/gearbox. Apparently the turbo spools up at about 1600rpm delivering torque earlier and the gearbox has a revised set of ratios to name a few changes.

I can only assume the Foresters will have the same adjustments.

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:27 pm

Matt K wrote: I asked a Suburu salesman and he told me that the problem has been fixed and all new Forester from mid 2011 have a new catalytic convertor that solves the problem and allows normal around town driving.

Hey Matt,

I would be very cautious. He may be right but he may just be trying to get a sale. He is, after all, a salesman! lol.

You could email Subaru Oz & ask for specific details of what has been done.

Subies are great cars & diesels are great engines, but they are new to Mr.Fuji & he appears to be having considerable issues getting it sorted. You would have thought by now Subaru would know exactly what the problem was and have a recall to fix it for all current owners

StrontiumSteel · Post by **StrontiumSteel** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:34 pm

Matt K wrote: I asked a Suburu salesman and he told me that the problem has been fixed and all new Forester from mid 2011 have a new catalytic convertor that solves the problem and allows normal around town driving.

Does anyone else know about this?

Matt

Hi Matt,

I received my diesel at the end of June = one of the first into the country after the earthquake in Japan. So far I've not had a single problem in the ~15,000k's I've owned it.

Of course my daily commute is 30k's each way on NT roads averaging 110-120kph so my experience with lots of short drives is limited.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Falco80 · Post by **Falco80** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:08 am

My diesel has been running great. Just reached 49000km's now and no shuddering or DPF light coming on since early last year. Since it's a lease vehicle I have only used BP servos to fill up since new and tend to use the same local servo, which pumps out a lot of diesel. I feel the 200km's i drive each weekday and then the 5km thrash-through-the-hills just before i get home are doing the engine good.

It still annoys me with these new engines though that they need to be on-boost to produce any power. You really can't drive this engine from idle like an old-school diesel because it is an absolute pig and all your doing is clogging up the DPF.

I've made it a rule with this car to only accelerate hard at 2000rpm or above. Sometime that means upshifting at 3500rpm, so that the next gear is in the sweet on-boost area. I generally drive the engine between 2000-3000rpm's which i think is how they need to be driven. As everyone say, they can't be lugged.

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:02 am

Falco80 wrote:I feel the 200km's i drive each weekday and then the 5km thrash-through-the-hills just before i get home are doing the engine good.

It still annoys me with these new engines though that they need to be on-boost to produce any power. You really can't drive this engine from idle like an old-school diesel because it is an absolute pig and all your doing is clogging up the DPF.

I've made it a rule with this car to only accelerate hard at 2000rpm or above. Sometime that means upshifting at 3500rpm, so that the next gear is in the sweet on-boost area. I generally drive the engine between 2000-3000rpm's which i think is how they need to be driven. As everyone say, they can't be lugged.

What's your economy like?

Maybe its just a matter of people adjusting from the old school diesels which get torque from idle lol. But revving a diesel hard might take some getting used to

Falco80 · Post by **Falco80** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:51 pm

nachaluva wrote:What's your economy like?

Maybe its just a matter of people adjusting from the old school diesels which get torque from idle lol. But revving a diesel hard might take some getting used to

I'm pleased with the economy I've been getting. Since new I have kept records of each tank fill and how many kilometres I got to however many litres I refilled with. The average for the last 12 months/49000k's is 6.5l per 100k's. Some weeks I feel like driving economically, and others I feel like driving it hard, but either way i'm happy. I drove my GF's hyundai getz for a while last week and i started getting depressed when it got to the last quarter in the tank and I'd only done 400k's! Thats usually only half on the foz's gauge.

You could drive the boxer diesel like an old diesel, but it will have no power and you would be doing the DPF and your wallet no favours.

ForesterDiesel · Post by **ForesterDiesel** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:06 am

I'm pretty much the same as Falco80.

I'm at 40,000km and my daily drive to work is 100km each way, 80% highway speeds. Never had an issue at all with the DPF or the shudder issue, leaving me 100% happy with the diesel Forester. I was worried when I read this thread before purchasing the car, but was hoping my long drives wouldn't be a problem. Not one hint of a DPF problem.

Normally changing up at 3500 rpm, but when I get carried away I'm at the top of the RPM.

Economy per tank is between 6.2L and 6.5L/100km (worked out at the pump - the dash seems to consistently be 0.2L lower). If I baby it, it comes to around 5.7L/100km - not a massive difference.

At the end of the day, I'm very happy with the car. If something happened to this one, I'd buy another one.

Pleiades · Post by **Pleiades** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:27 pm

I have a 2011 Outback Premium Diesel which has now done about 17K. The aforementioned loss of torque at 1800-2100RPM on a constant incline developed at around 8000-9000kms - as it was an intermittent problem, I waited until the first service at Docklands to bring it up. Although the service dept was a bit coy about it I'm sure they had some idea from other users and forums - it's a known problem. It's got nothing to do with the drivetrain/gearbox/clutch, definitely engine. At first I tought the turbo or the common rail injection system as playing up. It really feels like the flat 4 is 'missing' and running on 2 cyls, hence the vibration. Anyway, at the service they advised me that they had re-flashed the ECU, and to report back if any problems. It is still there but nowhere near as bad, and accelerating usually fixes it. If the DPFis the culprit and it only burns for a few seconds (you can usually smell it...) then why did the problem somtimes last for over 5 minutes.

Also, as I live in the hills and home stretch is a particularly steep 2-3 gear uphill, it had lost power on occasions, and stalled when in 2nd even first gear. Usually on a cool evening with no other passengers it would hold 50-60kmh in third? An annoying thing on an otherwise great car.

Economy is 6.8L/100km over the 17k, which is outstanding, as it is a mix of say 60% freeway/20% suburbs/20% city. The fat torque when rolling in gears is outstanding, as is the AWD in the wet. For all those who bag the looks, well I could not have bought the previous model as it was way too small in the rear seat area. New one is cavernous enough for 3 lanky teenagers as well as my 189cm frame in the front.

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:05 pm

Welcome Pleiades

I see you're in Belgrave... yep some nice steep hills there lol.

As you say a very annoying thing on an otherwise great car...

Dikman · Post by **Dikman** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:29 pm

Since reading this thread, I've spoken to various people about diesels (some who know things, some who don't

) and am convinced that diesels aren't for everyone. I think there's a great deal of "marketing hype" going on at the moment. It's obvious that they are economical, but since you need to meet specific driving conditions they're not ideal for pootling down to the shops, and as for the DPF's - no thanks!!! (I've since picked up that these are causing concerns in one or two other brands as well).

Anyhow, I've decided against a new Forester, as while there are some nice improvements it hardly warrants the changeover cost (plus they still have the archaic 4 speed auto!). But now my wife thinks maybe a new XV? (She likes the orange one in the advert

). Interesting idea, however, as the new CVT auto is apparently very economical.

Still thinking......

skipalami · Post by **skipalami** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:36 pm

Althought the 4sp Auto may seem like something out of the middle ages, I owned a Foz 4 years ago with the same transmission and it was well matched to the car/engine. Truley not as bad as you might think.

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:37 pm

Canberra to Sydney and back this w/end, shudder struck on way up at 110km/h in 6th (~2100rpm): chunk-chunk-chunk. Speed 110km/h (GPS) on cruise, 6th gear, warm engine, A/C on, ~20-22C (indicated on OAT) and humid, ~41000kms on clock, flattish road.

And the great thing was...THE WIFE WAS IN THE CAR AND SAID "WHAT WAS THAT!"

Have to tell the local Subaru dealer in the morning. If we have to go in I'll also have the 8-month-old along too for emotive pull. And if they don't believe me, I'll let my wife deal with them.

There were a few other attempted shudders also, so something's up. On one of them I heard the turbo whistle change. A different tank of Shell diesel (different servo to before) went in before the trip. Also seemed to be a few regens on the trip, more than I expected.

Dikman · Post by **Dikman** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:16 pm

skipalami wrote:Althought the 4sp Auto may seem like something out of the middle ages, I owned a Foz 4 years ago with the same transmission and it was well matched to the car/engine. Truley not as bad as you might think.

Sorry, worse than I might think

. My wife calls the car "Lurch", because of the way it shifts. I've driven one or two other brands of autos, and they were definitely smoother.

StrontiumSteel · Post by **StrontiumSteel** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:53 pm

Dikman wrote: My wife calls the car "Lurch", because of the way it shifts.

I would never consider buying an auto, but I can tell you the 6 speed manual is a very nice gearbox.

16,000k's and not a shudder. I'm driving to Cairns and back in about a months time and I'll report back if there are any issues along the way.

eems · Post by **eems** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:31 am

Hi guys,
My 10 Outback has had the shudder since day one, now nearing 50,000kms.

Averaging 6.4-6.7l per 100kms (indicated) over that time with better economy at hwy speeds (70-90k) than freeway speeds (100-110k) on average.

I have been testing the engine with the EGR unit plug disconnected for ~300kms. The ECU runs in limp home mode. No regen yet, probably won't occur in limp home, i am unsure.

In this state the shudder has disappeared completely. The engine makes full boost at 1600-1650rpm in 3rd gear onwards and pulls happily from 1500rpm. Previously this was not the case.

Fuel consumption has dropped to 5.0l indicated. Mixed freeway / city. The car cruises at 70kph on flat ground comfortably sipping under 3l/100kms.

One guess is the EGR motor PID and or frequency settings are too aggressively programmed. Some EGR units may not be up to scratch which causes them to remain open / operational when they shouldn't be. The issue may be exacerbated during a re-gen, the EGR target duty is increased and post injection starts.

I find the engine note changes and shudder still occurs without fuel consumption doubling, which would indicate that there is shudder present absent of post injection.. The engine note changing in this case points to exhaust gas re-circulation taking place incorrectly. Shuddering could be a symptom of the balance of exhaust gas and intake charge (in this case, ~20psi intake charge at 1800rpm) pulsing in and out of the intake manifold (ie. to the operational frequency or current duty cycle of EGR valve) starving some cylinders of an ignitable air/fuel mixture.

Another scenario is that some EGR units are just plain faulty and fail to remain completely closed at low duty cycle. EGR commonly takes place at light loads which explains why revving the engine can 'cure' it.

I plan to block it off / physically disable the valve if the cars fuel economy is going to remain 15-22 percent lower and the shudder is eliminated.

ATB.

Cihan

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:09 pm

G'day Cihan - welcome to the forum!

Good to hear that you've looked in to it and had a go at experimenting with things. I just hope that it doesn't void your warranty!

The other thing I wanted to know is if you've taken this up with any subaru dealerships to see if they've been looking into this side of things - who knows, you may have just hit the nail on the head with this one!

Cheers

Bennie

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:29 pm

eems wrote:I plan to block it off / physically disable the valve if the cars fuel economy is going to remain 15-22 percent lower and the shudder is eliminated.

What'll you do if/when the DPF overfills due to no/ineffective regens?

Shuddering just (re)started for me recently at 40,000kms. Seems to be a common number. Had one today and I'm pretty sure it was at the end of a regen- reduced response and decreased fuel economy had been happening for 15? mins prior and response/economy came back when the shudder happened.

eems · Post by **eems** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:09 am

El_Freddo wrote:G'day Cihan - welcome to the forum!

Thank for the welcome Bennie.

I'd think Subaru already understands the problem and knows the solution, it'd be down to cost minimization at the moment. First they'll try to 'ECU flash' the problem away, and then they'll replace the hardware in the worst cases.

I could be wrong because being in limp home mode evidently disables more than one system. But it's pretty conclusive to me going from experience in tuning with EGR systems (and disabling them in performance applications). If they're open too far the engine basically chokes. If the frequency / timing is off the unit doesn't operate at the correct effective duty cycle just like any other similar electrical device. If the unit is too far open with high exhaust back pressure - there's going to be a problem. Long term the whole intake manifold will choke up with carbon and soot.

I guess the effort was to prove my earlier suspicions about Subaru's response via their service department. IE not 'lugging' the engine, using the 'revised' shift schedule, using 'high quality' fuel etc, which is all just tangential time wasting in my opinion. Sure there's valid cases where short trips cause DPF problems, but that's already in the manual i read from start to finish when i bought the car.

Bennie, i'm confident that the dealerships have no idea. If they do, they won't act until the 'mod' funding is granted from Japan. I think the more expensive the fix, the longer it's going to take. Its been close to 2 years now? I'm curious to know how well Subaru will look after owners when the 3 year warranty expires?

pitrack_1 wrote:What'll you do if/when the DPF overfills due to no/ineffective regens?

Hi Pitrack,
I agree, EGR delete means DPF has probably got to go also.

thunder039 · Post by **thunder039** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:09 am

i was reading on subaru website that they have revised the diesel engines for the forester in the outback and have adjusted things like timing and turbo.
not only have they got better fuel economy now, claimed 6.0l/100km! which is nuts but there is a good chance if they have revised the motor they may have fixed the shudder

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:02 pm

thunder039 wrote:but there is a good chance if they have revised the motor they may have fixed the shudder

*May* - that's a big call and probably a product of subaru's marketing (spin) department. Yes they've probably looked into it and done some stuff with the engine etc but I highly doubt they've actually solved it yet.

Cheers

Bennie

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