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Well after having finished my major modifications on my '92 GX Liberty, I thought I might post up my thoughts and opinions now I've had a few weeks in it in a variety of roads and conditions. This is not a 'how to' write up, I'll get to that later once I've had a chance to sift through photos and get the write up done in pdf.

I'm writing this mainly aimed at anyone interested in modifying their liberty in a similar way or for a similar purpose. You can see my original thread some time ago herethat contains lots of good advice from many helpful folk that will fill you in on background and hopefully answer some of your questions... I will continue amending this post as comments and corrections come from other members. As I am no expert and this is the only car I have modded, I am entirely self taught and learnt from here and shop manuals, the input from experienced members will help ensure accuracy of the info. Hopefully this first post will contain most of what you need, but read the whole thing anyway. It is mostly inspired from my own car, and I have included corrections and comments from others to really cover what implications and options exist if you want to go down this path. Please contribute to the thread if you have some help to offer!


My set up is:

3" lift (3" strut tops, 2" body spacers, steering extension)
'96 outback struts
Raised King Springs
'97 outback trailing arm mounts
16" outback alloys (16" steel foz spare)
Standard AWD dual range transmission with standard 3.9 front diff and 3.9 rear diff
215/70/16 BF Goodrich AT tires
Alloy bull bar with driving lights


So some general observations and opinions...

1. Liberty's have terrible approach and departure angles (i.e the angle of slope you can approach (or depart) without hitting) because they have a looong front and and fat wagon arse. This will always be the limiting factor in offroad conditions, especially unlifted.


2. These cars are not intended to have oversize wheels. I am running 16" rims (outback, but there is no real difference between foz and outback rims AFAIK) with BFGoodrich AT tyres, 215/70/16. Because of this set up:

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• The speedo is out by -15%. The 1992 model has a mechanical speedo - you can get mechanical correctors which cost around $200. I don't have the cash for it at the moment, so instead i used a formula and made up a conversion table that sits on my dash (see later posts on this page)
• I get massive scrub on the front gear box cross member (and a little on the chassis rails) at full lock.
• The 'drive' of the car has been drastically changed due to the change in effective gearing (your wheels are essential a gear too) brought about by the larger and heavier tires. The standard AWD low range is now undergeared and this is noticable on offroad tough hill climbs at low speed, and your normal (high range) will feel different, especially in the mountains. I have to say I'm enjoying the 2.5k rpm at 100km/h on the highway, and shifting into 4th up some hills on the highway felt very strange....
• Your lib will not have the 'zippy' feeling that it used to with the standard set up. While they're no race car, the only way you'll get that feeling back is by changing diff ratios. The standard in 1st gen liberties fitted AWD dual range boxes are 3.9 for both front and rear diffs. Upping to 4.11 or 4.44 diffs will compensate for the larger tires and reportedly bring rpms in each gear closer to standard. The 1.8L liberties came with 4.11 front and rear diffs.
• The spare wheel will no longer fit in the spare wheel well, nor will the existing jack be tall enough to change your spare.
• I plan to put the L series low range and ej 4.11 or 4.44 diffs in to account for the loss of advantage, I will edit here once that is done. According to my subaru shop manual, the 1.8L liberties came fitted with the 1.59 low range. The 2.0 and 2.2 are 1.196, turbo's didn't come with low range.

[/INDENT]

The BFG AT's are absolutely fantastic. I came from bald road tires, so anything was going to be better, but I've been blown away by how good they actually are. Great when aired down, at 36 psi not too noisy on the road and still great traction on dirt.


3. Raised Springs and outback struts:
The raised king springs are super when the vehicle has weight in it. I went for them as I spend a lot of time camping and towing, often with four passengers. Cornering is fantastic, especially at speed. I've pushed it pretty damn quick on some alpine dirt roads that were mint but with big pot holes that need serious dodging at speed. There was little banking, and what was there was controlled and predictable, even if it still hit the holes. When unloaded, the back end in particular tends to bounce on speed humps and rattle on dirt roads. I guess you could say that without weight there isn't enough preload on the springs and you loose a bit of performance. If you are not regularly loading your lib then I would recommend against the raised springs.

The raised springs are not taller. They are stiffer than standard, and this means that when loaded the car does not sink as low onto its suspension, thus raising the vehicle.

It is only through using taller struts and tires that you increase under car clearance. The raised springs assist in this, and also further increases the CV angles.

Outback struts have been great. They are wider than the pneumatic suspension and you will have to do some bashing of the wheel well to make them turn freely. You can use either gen 2 or 3 outback struts for the front, but only gen 2 for the rear due to different constructions. Having seen both, I would recommend gen 1 as they look beefier. I have been told forester struts can be used, but do not yet know which series' are suitable.



3" Lift Kit:

In conjunction with the outback struts, raised springs, and 3" strut tops you end up with one pretty damn tall assembly. This increases the angles on the CV joints (my lib came with the tri-pot type typically found in post 1994 models) and general opinion is that this will increase wear. I've just replaced all four front CV boots and inspected all joints. Now just have to wait and see.

If you are not looking for mega clearance or you want your lib to look less beasty, 2" strut tops would suffice and also, presumably, bring less wear onto the CV's than the 3" as there is one inch less height on the struts, thus 1 inch worth's less change in angle at the cv's. The whole assembly would still be a great option for off roading.

The spacers are simple to install and no-nonsense, I purchased mine from Dave (SubiWanKanobe on here) and was impressed with material and build quality. I suggest ordering it a long time before you a ready to install, as Dave is a busy man.

There is offset built into the strut lift blocks that help remove the excess camber caused by having a taller strut assembly. Without the lift, it is said that there is sufficient camber adjustment in the tie rods to accommodate the taller outback/forester struts.

These spacers will increase the body clearance but not affect your drive train's clearance. The strut tops are the exception as they push the wheel down and thus raise the entire vehicle up from the pivot on the control arm.

The distance the gear box has moved from the body has changed the shifting feel, and it is often awkward getting into second. Any suggestions as to solutions?



General thoughts and recommendations:
Going for this set up takes time to find the parts (unless your willing to buy new) and will significantly change your ride, especially if you're coming from the pneumatic set up.

Removing the struts will mean disconnecting the brake lines so you need to be able to bleed breaks. The brake lines are threaded through a small bracket which holds them onto the strut: you can cut a slit into this bracket and fold back to remove lines without disconnecting the brakes if you are willing to cut the bracket. However if you do it the long way you get nice fresh brake fluid and if you purchased new struts you retain warranty...

You will also need a wheel alignment afterward. I recommend Bridgestone in Frankston (on the nepean highway) if you are in melbourne, they did a great job.

It makes for a great car that will definitely get you places you couldn't before, and handle much much better on dirt/wet roads.

Instead of 16" rims, finding tires for the 14" rims may be a cheaper option. Also, if you can get 15" rims and offroad tires then this may eliminate the problems I've had with scrub.

I whole heartedly recommend these modifications, but strongly state that you will have a very different vehicle to what you started with, in looks and especially in drive and handling.

Anyone in melbourne who wants to do this and needs help with install I will be happy to help.

Thank you to members VincentVega, AlpineRaven and AndrewT for their contributions so far

Cheers,
Owen.

nice looking rig in your signature and a good write up as well any other pics or is my browser being a fart arse again and not showing the pics

TOONGA

a few comments on your post:

yes bigger tyres increase your gearing. You can fix this by changing diff ratios

the scrubbing at the front is on the chassis rail not the gearboix crossmember. its a smooth surface and wont damage your tyres. just get used to it. Yours is worse than some because you have such big tyres, and also such a big lift. the lift narrows your track width and means more rubbing on the chassis rail..

speedo out can also be fixed by changing speedo drive gears, or for electronic speedos you can use a speedo corrector circuit

brake lines dont need to be removed. you just cut a slot in the mount on the strut and bend it out of the way to let the line out.. no need to bleed the brakes.

The lift kit is crucial if you want to fit the outback struts (forester will not fit) as they have a built in offset to prevent you burning out your CV joints.

forester struts can be used. its been done plenty of times.
the offset in the lift kit top is to account for the extra lift in hte lift kit top..
this doesnt cause CV wear. it will cause dodgy handling and tyre wear because your camber will be all wrong. There is enough adjustment in a lib front end to account for the extra lift of just a set of outback struts.

Good read up there.. I do recommend 1.59:1 low range upgrade in your gearbox.
Good thing about these AWD boxes, you can change the final gear ratios, yours currently has 3.9, worth upgrading to 4.11 (if you wanted to install 1.59:1 low you'll need to modify the low range, 4.44 CAN be used but you'll have to machine the crown)
There is plenty of 4.11/4.44 rear diff out there and easily to be sourced. But the gearbox side is limited, I know someone who has several 4.11/4.44 for the gearbox.
As 5th gear if you're gonna install 4.11/4.44 you would need to upgrade 5th gear as well for highway use.
Can you show us pictures of upgraded points? (or in your write up)
Cheers
AP

AlpineRaven wrote: As 5th gear if you're gonna install 4.11/4.44 you would need to upgrade 5th gear as well for highway use

no you don't. he is running 28" tyres, the whole point of changing the diff ratios is to bring the engine back closer to stock RPM in each selected gear.

you guys need to watch stating things as facts that just aren't true.

On the topic of diff ratio changes, the best thing I ever did to my car was change from 4.11 to 4.44 diffs (auto gearbox). I run 27.5" tyres and this ratio change gave me back a heap of acceleration, better hill climbing ability in the bush and best of all way better fuel economy on the highway. Everyone thinks lower RPM = less fuel on the highway but that is not always true.

Awesome, thanks for the comments guys. Especially vincetvega, I've got lots of questions for you!

vincentvega wrote:a few comments on your post:

yes bigger tyres increase your gearing. You can fix this by changing diff ratios

the scrubbing at the front is on the chassis rail not the gearboix crossmember. its a smooth surface and wont damage your tyres. just get used to it.

Um no, it's hitting the crossmember, clearly and definitely. Unless you have snuck down to victoria and peaked at my car closely, I have no idea how you could possible have such an definite opinion about my car when I have stated it as fact because I'm lookin' at it. It is also rubbing the chassis rail, but only a little bit. I will take photos later and put into another thread to show you what I mean

vincentvega wrote: Yours is worse than some because you have such big tyres, and also such a big lift. the lift narrows your track width and means more rubbing on the chassis rail..

Can you elaborate on that comment above? What do you mean by the lift narrows the track width? How does it do this?

vincentvega wrote: speedo out can also be fixed by changing speedo drive gears, or for electronic speedos you can use a speedo corrector circuit

brake lines dont need to be removed. you just cut a slot in the mount on the strut and bend it out of the way to let the line out.. no need to bleed the brakes.

Oooh good tip, I'll put that in my write up later for sure!

As for speedo, I know about the correctors and I'll amend it now. I can't afford one at the moment, so I've made a table that has the new speeds in it. The formula is n-(nx)=y where n is your speedo reading and x is speedo difference and y is actual speed (mine is -15% out so I'm traveling 85% of what my speedo reads . Minus if your speedo is under, plus if it's over i.e. 100 - (100*.85) = 85 so if I want to travel at 100k/h I go 85 on the speedo. While it will mean my odometer is out, it will do for now until i have the dosh to get a corrector.

vincentvega wrote: forester struts can be used. its been done plenty of times.
the offset in the lift kit top is to account for the extra lift in hte lift kit top..
this doesnt cause CV wear. it will cause dodgy handling and tyre wear because your camber will be all wrong. There is enough adjustment in a lib front end to account for the extra lift of just a set of outback struts.

Wish I knew that a year ago...

Which year of foz struts? As for the offset it lift tops, the 2" tops still have offset, so my understanding is that it is there to account for the increased camber brought about by installing outback struts, so the 3" has more offset as it has to compensate for an additional inch in hight?

vincentvega wrote: ...he is running 28" tyres, the whole point of changing the diff ratios is to bring the engine back closer to stock RPM in each selected gear.

Correct on that one, bringing the ratios back closer into gear would be great to make the drive better around town and in the hills.

vincentvega wrote: you guys need to watch stating things as facts that just aren't true.

That's why I put my post up. I don't have years of experience modding subi's, however to get the needed info on what was required for fitting larger tires to libs I had to read a lot of threads with differing opinions everywhere. My hope is that my initial post will prompt corrections like yours and comment's like APs so that I can amend the initial post and help people that were in a situation similar to myself six months ago. If I had advice like what I've written above, and what you've said in woody.t's thread and here (I wish you had said that back when I planning) I might have a different set up to what I have now. I'm stoked with what I have, but I might have considered differently if I had a better idea of what was possible.

Also, the things that we've stated that are 'just not true' I believed from reading widely and in my own experience and conversations with experienced subi mechanics. While I welcome you're input, statements like that on boards are not accompanied by tone or facial expressions - I can't tell if you're giving friendly advice or having a dig. And if you're going to state things like that, it'd be polite to either put it in context or substantiate it by saying "in my 10 years experience of modding subarus...". You're opinion is yours, if you want to challenge others, it is both polite and in your own interest to do it tactfully and substantiated

vincentvega wrote: On the topic of diff ratio changes, the best thing I ever did to my car was change from 4.11 to 4.44 diffs (auto gearbox). I run 27.5" tyres and this ratio change gave me back a heap of acceleration, better hill climbing ability in the bush and best of all way better fuel economy on the highway. Everyone thinks lower RPM = less fuel on the highway but that is not always true.

So right now you are have 4.44 front and rear diffs? What model/series has the 4.44 rear diffs?

The only time I can think that lower revs doesn't equal better fuel economy on the highway is if you are dumb enough to feed more fuel to the engine than it can use (i.e. flooring it and still loosing power up hill). Could you please explain how you now get better fuel economy having changed your set up?

Cruising on a flat highway, I got 9L/100 freeway the other day with 4 passengers, that's at 100km/h @ 2600rpm. I could never get that before. I had to change to fourth up hills that I didn't have to previously (obviously 2600rpm doesn't generate the same hp as 3000rpm, but I was changing up to about 2900 or 3200, depending on how early I changed and how fast I was going, but this is the same rpm that I used to sit on at 100 in fifth and I'm happy with that.

Is there another scenario that can be thought of where lower revs doesn't equal better fuel economy on the freeway, especially when cruising at 100 or 110?

Many sincere thanks for your input vincetvega, I look forward to your replies and ammending to first post to accomodate them

Hey AP, I think we'll be having a very detailed discussion some time next school holidays to get my gearing sorted! I look forward to it!

Sorry TOONGA, just the sig pic. I'll have others up eventually, though elsewhere as this isn't the place for them

Thanks agian for the input, hopefully we can get a few more people posting up corrections / elaborations so as to help others!

Cheers,
Owen.

Very interesting above, we learn everyday hey...
I think we need to make this thread sticky..
Cheers
AP

would a speedo drive gear taken off a donor car with a similar set up to the modified vehicle give a more accurate reading?

I.e. say an outback with 16" rims standard, could the speedo drive be taken from that to bring a liberty fitted with 16" closer into line? Or are the later models electric?

vincentvega wrote:
brake lines dont need to be removed. you just cut a slot in the mount on the strut and bend it out of the way to let the line out.. no need to bleed the brakes.
.

I was gonna post up this tip too, but on the other hand sometimes it's worth disconnecting the lines to avoid cutting the slot in your brand new struts. Just incase you have to claim warranty on them at a later date, having a slot cut in the little bracket may cause an issue with the retailer. At least you get refreshed brake fluid as a bonus by doing it the long way!

With the speedo correction you can buy a little "gearbox" that sits in-line with your existing mechanical speedo cable. It has a gearset in it which can be adjusted to suit what percentage correction you require.

vincentvega wrote:
brake lines dont need to be removed. you just cut a slot in the mount on the strut and bend it out of the way to let the line out.. no need to bleed the brakes.
.

I was gonna post up this tip too, but on the other hand sometimes it's worth disconnecting the lines to avoid cutting the slot in your brand new struts. Just incase you have to claim warranty on them at a later date, having a slot cut in the little bracket may cause an issue with the retailer. At least you get refreshed brake fluid as a bonus by doing it the long way!

With the speedo correction you can buy a little "gearbox" that sits in-line with your existing mechanical speedo cable. It has a gearset in it which can be adjusted to suit what percentage correction you require.

Thanks Mr T, your thoughts now included in the original

nice write up,
my car is a similar setup although i only have 2'' strut tops and about 27.5inch (215/65/16) tyres. im still running the 3.9 gearbox and standard liberty low range, but then i have a ej20t witch compensates a little for the under gearing.

mine on the hiway is fine in 5th when its just the car and a little gear in side, but when i have the camper on it is happier in 4th for most of the time untill im on the flat or on a down hill.

one day when i get motivated i will build a low low range box, that is all the car is really lacking, especially when the camper is on the back.

i am also running outback front and rear struts, raised outback spring in the front and raised forester springs in the rear to be able to use the std lib strut tops, this combo is a little soft when loaded but then the spring are a little sad a well. so i run some level bars when towing camper to compensate. they really do help and the car does feel lighter with them on.

bryan

ScubyRoo wrote:So right now you are have 4.44 front and rear diffs? What model/series has the 4.44 rear diffs?

From my not really extensive knowledge (not taking the piss) the 4.44 is from a turbo gearbox, possibly the STi WRX box...

ScubyRoo wrote:The only time I can think that lower revs doesn't equal better fuel economy on the highway is if you are dumb enough to feed more fuel to the engine than it can use (i.e. flooring it and still loosing power up hill). Could you please explain how you now get better fuel economy having changed your set up?

Cruising on a flat highway, I got 9L/100 freeway the other day with 4 passengers, that's at 100km/h @ 2600rpm. I could never get that before. I had to change to fourth up hills that I didn't have to previously (obviously 2600rpm doesn't generate the same hp as 3000rpm, but I was changing up to about 2900 or 3200, depending on how early I changed and how fast I was going, but this is the same rpm that I used to sit on at 100 in fifth and I'm happy with that.

Is there another scenario that can be thought of where lower revs doesn't equal better fuel economy on the freeway, especially when cruising at 100 or 110?

Basically what Vincentvega is saying is that if you've changed your gearing to something lower, you can put your cruising rev below the motor's optimal economy range. The NA subi's do like to have a few revs at speed, but 3250 does seem a little high...

Running oversized tyres then changing your diff ratio to something shorter (4.1 or 4.44 for the shortest available) will increase your revs at speed but may still be below that of a stock box with stock tyre diametre. You want to find the happy place between onroad economy and offroad low range performance, it sounds like VV has done that with his gearbox/diff/tyre/lift setup.

ScubyRoo wrote:Hey AP, I think we'll be having a very detailed discussion some time next school holidays to get my gearing sorted! I look forward to it!

Can I hang around for that???

ScubyRoo wrote:would a speedo drive gear taken off a donor car with a similar set up to the modified vehicle give a more accurate reading?

I.e. say an outback with 16" rims standard, could the speedo drive be taken from that to bring a liberty fitted with 16" closer into line? Or are the later models electric?

It really depends on the tyre diametre that vehicle was running and IF the speedo gear was changed. It would be cheaper to get the speedo cable gearbox that AndyT was talking about.

The other option could be converting to a dash from a later liberty that uses a pulsed speed sensor output to work the speedo reading - then you can intercept the pulse and change the rate of pulse output to the speedo to give the correct reading as VV was saying.

Cheers

Bennie

ScubyRoo wrote:..........

Gearbox crossmember - my mistake. I have been playing with autos for too long! Can you take to the end of it with a grinding disc to smooth off any sharp edges? I usually grind off the corner of the lift kit block and control arm mount where the tyre rubs on the chassis rail to prevent tyre damage.

Track width - Your front wheels pivot around the end of the engine crossmember and the rear control arm bush. When you lower the wheel with respect to these points, the wheels move inwards towards the car. Similar in the rear end except it also moves the wheels forward as you have seen.

Speedo gears - your speedo drive is linked directly to the drivers side front output stub. So diff ratios have no effect. I run 97 outback speedo gears in my auto gearbox. These are designed to read slow for 26" tyres, and the end result is my 27.5" tyres give a perfect speedo reading.

Lift kit offset - extra offset in a 3" top is to account for the extra inch lift in the top. That said.. there is nothing stopping whoever makes the top adding some extra offset to account for raised springs etc.

Diffs - Turbo imports of your cars vintage had 4.11 manual boxes. Thats where you will want to steal your diffs from.

Fuel Economy - My car is an auto with a lockup torque converter. I think the better fuel economy has come from the fact that the car is no longer labouring on cruise. I used to do ~2500rpm on the highway, im now doing more like 2800.

I wasnt having a dig at you guys. Just a friendly warning. For example, When someone says "you NEED to change your 5th gear" when you cleary don't HAVE to.. it needs to be corrected.

Yeah, when I had 26.3" on my wagon when I lifted it, it used to cruise at approx 2600rpm at 100kmh (approx 2800rpm at 110kmh) I did go further in fuel consumption rather than factory specification tyres. I gained extra 75-120kms to a tank depending on the driving conditions...
That is why Ive worked out to change the 5th gear ratio in the gearbox to get the Revs back with factory tyres..
Cheers
AP