Diesel Particulate Filter - DPF

sven '2' · Post by **sven '2'** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:27 am

I really feel for the disiel owners - must be very frustrating

Nissan on the other hand, have (according to the Adelaide's most independent and trustworthy paper, The Advertiser) on occasions has refunded owners who have fallen foul of the Pathfinder (R52), which has a undiagnosable transmission fault causing shudder.

A quick interwebs search shows threads like our DPF all over the globe.

Some hope…maybe??

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:14 pm

Ahhh! Summer's back and so am I and so are my Diesel's misbehaviours...

So sorry to hear others have been caught in the trap- neek and kudo2013 you have my sympathies.

Neek, it may be that your 2010 may need a possible software update or perhaps a particular (EGR?) valve cleaned? I 'exercised' my EGR valve simply by repeated full-on/off throttle during the regen- you can hear the valve cycling (a click/thunk a second or two after throttle release). Heard somewhere (maybe another site?) they can get clogged up.

Kudo2013 + others re: DPF deletion/bypass/mod: Brett Middleton from MRT in Rhodes, Sydney. races a Diesel Forester, can you imagine a regen happening during a race

. He has a video on youtube talking about exhaust mods by searching Youtube for "Subaru diesel exhaust secrets and data for all cars" (sorry- seems this forum won't handle the code in the actual address) and showing (albeit briefly) a modified DPF (at approx 2min:30s). AFAIK the DPF monitors the pressure differential across it through before and after sensors, first mod I would suspect is to move the sensor(s) to minimise any differential reading (what the video I suspect shows) and/or remove/modify the DPF internal filter to stop the clogging. Perhaps some parameter changes to go with these.

I must say, I've been lucky to escape the shudder for some considerable time and not to have the DPF light come on. However, for the second year running, I have noted a regen issue appear for me.

During winter in Canberra (well, all the way through November, as the temp stays <20C

) I can pretty well drive a whole tank with maybe one regen (~700+km). But since the temp went >20C or so, the regen happy season has arrived. Suddenly, it's every 50km or so, maybe less. This includes running down the freeway Sydney-Canberra at highway speeds 110km/h, >2000rpm. No real change in usage, big change in vehicle behaviour.

One other new nasty has raised its head. Saturday was warm (not really hot), with the air temp gauge indicating 30C (means actual 28C) when on the way back to Canberra I pulled into Sally's Corner service area on the Hume Hwy. I left the wife and kid in the car, ran to the loo, ran out and left. Vehicle perhaps idling whilst stopped for 2 mins with A/C on. I had suspected a regen happening whilst pulling in due to l/100km indication and soppy response.

The Southbound ramp from Sally's Corner back onto the Hume has a downhill ramp onto the Hume. Well, when pulling out the engine sagged as I pressed the throttle in both first and second,.really bad in second, the engine basically stalling with a bootful of throttle, momentum the only thing keeping the car going until it picked up. I barely made 110km/h at the bottom of the down ramp to rejoin the freeway!

Car's in for the 87.5km service shortly. I mentioned the incident and numerous regens when booking over the phone... the service person went quiet for a long while. Finally piping up he said he was sorry but he was taking lots of notes... there may be hope yet!

In the past couple of days I've had 2 regens in 115kms (new tank of fuel...maybe there's been a fuel mix change?) plus some new whirrs/click-click-clicks not present before...something may not be right.

Drove a manual VW Passat wagon + 2.5-3 pax +luggage with a 1.6l (yes, 1.6) diesel 1500 miles across the UK. None of these issues and no noticeable regens/performance sag- and you would notice with a 1.6 in a laden Passat.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:19 am

Just watched that video, huge increase in torque and power. 320 up to 390Nm, 95 up to 119kw, I wonder what an ECUTEK tune is worth?
Might be worth having a chat to that guy because if he can tune the ecu, by deleting the DPF and the ecu instructions that go with it , it should then behave like a car with no DPF

Neeek · Post by **Neeek** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:43 am

Well, my car's currently being looked at. Took it in on Monday morning, and I don't expect to see it until Friday afternoon. And you know what? The DPF regen light came on on Sunday night coming home! Went on for about a minute as a solid light, then started flashing, giving us no time to do the hi-rev blat up the freeway thing to extinguish it. Was still flashing when I took it to the dealer, which was a bit of a bonus.

I put that one down in writing too, of course. Something along the lines of "the DPF light is flashing, diagnose/repair/replace said DPF as necessary and don't bother returning the car until it's sorted".

What makes me laugh is the bloke at the counter booking the cars in. Last time it went in for a (failed) diagnosis, he told me the vibration was definitely a wheel balance issue, sight unseen. This time the conversation went thus:

Me: "And another problem - the DPF light is flashing which means bring it to the dealer, so that's good timing"
Him: "Do you know what DPF stands for?"
Me: "Yes, Diesel Particulate Filter"
Him: "And do you know what it does?"
Me: "Yes, I do..."
Him: "Hmmm... you're probably filling up with bad fuel..."
Me: "Riiiight. Here are the keys, and here's another letter documenting this new problem. Can you please book me onto the next courtesy bus so I can get home?"

Seriously, he's on the front desk, FFS. And here he is diagnosing my car without ever having looked at it! We only fill up with BP, btw...

Hope it's sorted this week - fueling my big-block V8 in the interim is expensive!

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:12 pm

Neeek, unfortunately thats typical of dealers & not just Subaru. Never accept responsibility & always blame the customer!

Hopefully Subaru & a few others will sort out their diesel bugs soon...

pitrack, what I dont get is why some manufacturers dont have any probs with their diesels yet others just cant get it right

lalbne · Post by **lalbne** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:58 pm

Hi all, as with many of you im fed up with dpf and oil dilution issues and the lack of action from subaru. Im going to lodge a complaint with fair trading. Would love to receive any pm's from anyone that would like to jump on board or forward me their specific issues to include as evidence. If this has limited/no results I will be taking legal action. There is definitely a case here these issues are not acceptable.

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:41 am

NachaLuva wrote:Neeek, unfortunately thats typical of dealers & not just Subaru. Never accept responsibility & always blame the customer!

Hopefully Subaru & a few others will sort out their diesel bugs soon...

pitrack, what I dont get is why some manufacturers dont have any probs with their diesels yet others just cant get it right

NachaLuva wrote:pitrack, what I dont get is why some manufacturers dont have any probs with their diesels yet others just cant get it right

Hi Nachaluva,

see from your sig you've been busy with your car

The following is my opinion.

The Euro manufacturers- have been building diesels for 40 or 50 years. They invent the emission regs (that's why it's called EURO5 in my case...they're up to EURO6 now). If the Euros can't do it themselves they'll buy it in or build it together (e.g. PRV). For example, look here and here_too. I remember the old Golf Mk1 GLD from the 70's when I was young.

Then along comes Subaru in the noughties to compete with the Euros in Euroland. So did they try something simple to begin with? Mind you, they couldn't realistically to be competitive- Subaru has had to jump in at the high-tech end withthe rest of 'em.

But Subaru had to build a variable geometry turbocharged, DPFed, piezoelectrically injected, ceramically glowplugged, horizontally opposed boxer, all alloy, EURO4/5/6 gee-whiz unit from scratch by themselves, hooked to their own (no doubt beefed up) transmission and 4WD system and try to compete with the Euros straight up. Ahem!

Note DPF-type issues are NOT confined to Subarus.

A good example of not quite matching it first-off is my Subaru max torque is quoted across 1800-2400 rpm, whereas for e.g. VWs at the time (Tiguan) it's 1600-2400rpm. That's actually 33% more spread (800rpm vs 600) which gives a lot more tractability.

But probably the black arts of meeting the EURO5 regs with a DPF whilst maintaining drivability is the stuff that probably only experience can give you.

It's on it's 3rd 'revision' of the basic 1st design, I think. Underpinning these revisions different turbo units, DPFs, plumbing to match, ECUs, and programming. Things are different enough you can't swap parts around.

* 1st rev was EURO4 and could suffer broken crankshafts, damaged glowplugs. Few DPF issues as it was a 'passive' DPF (no forced regen cycle- no diesel post-injection I think)
* 2nd rev (mine) EURO5 with active DPF requiring 'forced' regen. This required a whole lot more thought, programming, probably plumbing etc. And may have been a bridge too far or the straw that broke the camel's back really. Australia started here.
* 3rd rev is current (I think) and EURO5/6 (not sure) with improved quoted fuel economy, improved drivability (I think), other changes possibly too.

Interestingly Ford Australia followed another route with the Territory diesel. They took the old Land Rover/PSA/Jaguar diesel and adapted it for the Territory. Mind you, it can't have a DPF as anyone sitting directly behind a diesel Territory when the driver floors it can attest.

At least Subaru are getting more reasonable with the diesel info. See this page where they emphasise more than once the diesel is not for short stop-start city trips. However, the fuel economy saving is a fallacy 'cos it assumes you'll meet their economy figures (you won't) and the diesel and petrol fuel prices are the same (they're not). They also state the DPF may need replacement at a cost of $1000s. This is a commendable concession. However they don't state that eventually the DPF will clag up with ash and need replacement anyway. They also don't state that by the time the arning light comes on you're already heading into trouble, the ECU will have tried to start a regen long before that.

In europe/GB they now recommend you buy a petrol in urban areas rather than a diesel. With these new turbo petrols, you're probably not missing much except diesel on your hands and a lack of DPF regens + associated issues.

Let's guesstimate on $3000 (I'd heard $EURO3000 elsewhere) for a DPF replacement at 200,000km. Services are every 12,500km in my case so that's 16 services... which gives an extra accrued cost of $187.50 per service! Given the Subaru servicing costs between $280 and $450 that's a huge extra cost per service to factor in.

My morals of the story:
* If you have a diesel, get rid of it (DPF or the car

) before it hits this DPF age limit.
* If you are planning to buy a used one, in my opinion don't, unless low klms and you have a DPF replacement option (maybe 3rd party or deletion).
* You can't recoup the initial outlay with fuel savings over the longer term if you do a DPF replacement (unless aftermarket becomes available).

I'm left to enjoy diesel clatter, longer times between (dirtier) refills, prodigious (but limited rpm range) torque and better economy.

More info can be found
here
and
here2

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:13 am

pitrack_1 wrote:I remember the old Golf Mk1 GLD from the 70's when I was young.

only until very recently I read that badge as a GLO - as in glow plug. They were a well kept secret according to some ....

Neeek · Post by **Neeek** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:50 pm

Minor update from me... the car is STILL with the dealer. Looks like they're going to keep it over Christmas at this rate, which I'm not very pleased about, and after the conversation I had with them this afternoon, they're pretty clear on that one. Took them 6 working days to change the rear main seal! Seriously, it doesn't take that long.

Anyway the car is now with Subaru who have confirmed that the DPF is blocked and are cutting it open to repair it. Then time for a regen, oil change and so on. No official word from them on the vibration issue yet, but I am assuming that they have decided the two are linked and by fixing one thing, that'll fix the other...

The waiting game continues, and the swearing at the dealer who sold us the car continues under our breath in the comfort of our own home. One week has turned into two, now probably three and a half because we're going away for the break. And no offer of a courtesy car either.... enough ranting. Will report back when more news is divulged, and the car is back in the driveway.

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:48 am

Neeek wrote:Minor update from me... the car is STILL with the dealer. Looks like they're going to keep it over Christmas at this rate, which I'm not very pleased about, and after the conversation I had with them this afternoon, they're pretty clear on that one. Took them 6 working days to change the rear main seal! Seriously, it doesn't take that long.

Anyway the car is now with Subaru who have confirmed that the DPF is blocked and are cutting it open to repair it. Then time for a regen, oil change and so on. No official word from them on the vibration issue yet, but I am assuming that they have decided the two are linked and by fixing one thing, that'll fix the other...

The waiting game continues, and the swearing at the dealer who sold us the car continues under our breath in the comfort of our own home. One week has turned into two, now probably three and a half because we're going away for the break. And no offer of a courtesy car either.... enough ranting. Will report back when more news is divulged, and the car is back in the driveway.

sometimes dealerships really don't know or would like not to address the issue.

Is anyone in Australia working on a DPF delete for Subarus?

Perhaps the people that do the Mazda DPF delete should be contacted.

Or these guys chiptuning

TOONGA

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:34 pm

Good one Toonga

Neeek, that sucks you'll be without your Subie for so long & they havent even given you a courtesy car!

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:23 am

Neeek,

you really have my sympathies.

Neeek wrote:Minor update from me... the car is STILL with the dealer. Looks like they're going to keep it over Christmas at this rate, which I'm not very pleased about, and after the conversation I had with them this afternoon, they're pretty clear on that one. Took them 6 working days to change the rear main seal! Seriously, it doesn't take that long.

No it doesn't that long. Incompetence, 'prioritisation', perhaps a bit of vindictiveness from service division or perhaps a combination of all three? The warranty work may be 'prioritised' lower if they get paid a lower rate from Subaru than they would you (very likely). And give you said it had to stay there until they fix it, they may have decided...it can stay there until they fix it (at their leisure)!

You may need a third party involved to monitor. Perhaps your state consumer affairs/ fair trading and/or your motoring organisation?

See Australian Consumer Law Consumer Guarantees Guide in particular perhaps p7 "Consumer
guarantees: who guarantees what?", p8 "What do the consumer guarantees cover?" and "Major Failures" definitions on p21.

Neeek wrote:Anyway the car is now with Subaru who have confirmed that the DPF is blocked and are cutting it open to repair it. Then time for a regen, oil change and so on. No official word from them on the vibration issue yet, but I am assuming that they have decided the two are linked and by fixing one thing, that'll fix the other...

You need to find out why it's blocked and that they're fixing a problem, not treating a symptom.
- If it's blocked by soot, why it won't burn off. It may occur again.
- If it's blocked by ash, where the ash came from. Dirty fuel, even perhaps incorrect oil if the last change wasn't done properly.
- If it's blocked by another material or perhaps physically damaged, where that came from and has that problem been fixed.

Neeek wrote:The waiting game continues, and the swearing at the dealer who sold us the car continues under our breath in the comfort of our own home. One week has turned into two, now probably three and a half because we're going away for the break. And no offer of a courtesy car either.... enough ranting. Will report back when more news is divulged, and the car is back in the driveway.

You could probably again ask your local fair trading and/or motoring organisation whether you have some recourse to compensation, at least a car to drive around in the meantime... maybe ask Subaru directly?

Good luck!

Neeek · Post by **Neeek** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:52 pm

Well, Merry Christmas and all that to all! Interesting developments from the land of buggered Outback.

So it's Thursday last week and I was bleating loudly to the idiots at the dealer. "Yeah, really sorry about this but they only got the car yesterday, can't fit it in before Christmas, yadda, etc."

Sod that. I asked them where the car actually was. They gave me the name of the dealer and so I drove up there to retrieve kiddy seats. We were leaving on Friday morning, and the car wasn't ready and we needed to whack them into my car to go on holidays.

Had a really nice chat with the Subaru people, with some alarming discoveries.

1. The DPF was not blocked at all. The dealer I bought the car from was lying to me. Turns out the turbo was blocked up. DPF was clear, last regen was recorded by the ECU 57km beforehand. The warning light flashing had them scratching their heads, but they reckoned it was an electrical gremlin... Me? I dunno.
2. Dealer had not told Subaru about the vibration. At all. I was furious, but not at Subaru as this one wasn't their fault. They made the assumption that the DPF light was now the problem and every other issue was now secondary and 100% linked to the warning light....

So we chatted about holidays, the dealer I bought the car from (turns out they have a poor reputation in the trade, apparently) and I grabbed the seats.

Packing the cars Friday morning, my wife gets a call. It's Subaru. All dealings have been through me thus far, so I'm a bit confused. They found her number in the log books in the glovebox. It transpires they worked late into Thursday night to get the car ready for us, and it was ready to be picked up now. We made arrangements swiftly and off we went to pick it up!

I haven't had the rundown yet on exactly what they did as we were in rather a hurry. But I believe they cleaned out the turbo and refitted it, reset the ECU, changed the oil and that was it. We've just got back from our holidays and the car was fine. Actually it's much quieter now, and I'd be lying if I thought it had a bit more oomph, but it drives perfectly again. No vibes either. Yet.

And the final word comes from the dealer we bought it from, and who we went through this saga with. Not a peep from them since Thursday last week. We have the car. We've been driving it for a week. They have not spoken to us at all. Turns out they're about as good as changing rear mains as they are at customer service.

Torque Subaru on the other hand, have a new customer in us. And their wrenches got a six pack to say thank you.

More updates when I get the rundown of what they actually did with the car.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:27 pm

Glad you got it sorted, seems other people might have to start bypassing the dealer too.

Why would the turbo itself clog up? Too much soot build up around the VGT vanes caused by unnecessary amounts of fuel dumped trying to regen DPF?

Neeek · Post by **Neeek** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:37 pm

Gannon wrote:Glad you got it sorted, seems other people might have to start bypassing the dealer too.

Why would the turbo itself clog up? Too much soot build up around the VGT vanes caused by unnecessary amounts of fuel dumped trying to regen DPF?

The only dealer I have unwittingly bypassed is the one we bought the car from, and they don't "do" Subarus. Sadly if we have any more probs, it will have to be done through them, not Torque Subaru. Warranty is with the ****wits, you see...

I recall that soot was the problem on the turbo, but I don't know why. I'll wait for the report and if there's anything I don't understand I'll follow up with them.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:39 pm

Sounds like one "good" story out of many not good stories. I hope this is maintained for you!

Cheers

Bennie

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:30 pm

Very glad you got it sorted, lets hope it stays smooth

Kennydundee · Post by **Kennydundee** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:00 pm

This problem with particulate filter never seems to go away for us, I have taken my wifes forrester back to the dealer a few times, but now have given up. we live remote and I bought her this car for reliability reasons. Seriously thinking of selling it now. I was told it is the way we drive, but a quick trip into town for us is a 300klm drive, an I tend to boot the subi up to 160klm/hr to blow out the webs but the ol particulite light always comes back. I will only keep the car if I can remove this exhaust particulate filter and bypass the electronics that detunes the engine, turning it into a pig to drive. making it quite unsafe to pass roadtrains etc. anyone done this mod before? CHeers, Kenny

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:51 pm

Kennydundee wrote:This problem with particulate filter never seems to go away for us, I have taken my wifes forrester back to the dealer a few times, but now have given up. we live remote and I bought her this car for reliability reasons. Seriously thinking of selling it now. I was told it is the way we drive, but a quick trip into town for us is a 300klm drive, an I tend to boot the subi up to 160klm/hr to blow out the webs but the ol particulite light always comes back. I will only keep the car if I can remove this exhaust particulate filter and bypass the electronics that detunes the engine, turning it into a pig to drive. making it quite unsafe to pass roadtrains etc. anyone done this mod before? CHeers, Kenny

Try PMing this guy, he's had his diesel tuned & may have done this mod or may be able to give a pointer to MRT Performance:
http://www.offroadsubarus.com/showthrea ... #post69619

EB# · Post by **EB#** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:03 pm

I have been considering a new 2.0L diesel Outback for a little while now, but reading through this thread my intentions have certainly been placed on the back-burner, so to speak. I think it has been posted before in this thread (?), but here is an excerpt from the Subaru website regarding the diesel engine and the DPF.

..... To help alleviate this situation the DPF is subjected to computer controlled regenerative processes that raise the combustion temperature to force drive the DPF burning process. However, these regenerative processes also require an engine operating temperature that is not sustainable in a continued urban driving environment.

When this situation occurs the driver is warned via a warning light to drive the vehicle at a higher speed & load to raise the exhaust temperature so the DPF can burn the soot particles. Failure to do so will ultimately result in the DPF becoming blocked. If this happens it will possibly be necessary to replace the DPF at a significant cost (thousands of dollars).

So again it is clear that a diesel engine vehicle requires a driving style and method of use that is only suitable for longer distances and higher loads! ......

Refer:
http://www.subaru.com.au/car-advice/ben ... sel-engine

The tone of these statements, directly from Subaru, seems to suggest that the owner would perhaps be liable to cover the replacement costs of a damaged DPF inside the warranty period if the car is not driven in a 'certain fashion'. Frankly, this situation is incredulous for a mainstream manufacturer such as Subaru to be offering a car for sale with a 'caveat' of sorts on the driving style. My respect for the Subaru brand is now somewhat diminished and I am of an opinion that the diesel engine/dpf issue is problematic in both an urban and a rural environment going by the accounts in this thread.

It is obvious that the dealerships and their sales staff do not offer this information at the point of sale!

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Diesel Particulate Filter - DPF

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particulate probs never leave